The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[blandy]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

while Corbyn's in power, the party will never oppose Brexit which is directly at odds with their core support who will suffer greatly when the economy is destroyed by hard Brexit.

It's party before country, for Corbyn and Labour (not that they're the only ones with that outlook). Their approach is basically "let the tories make the inevitable horrendous mess of it and get the blame and as long as we stay in the background muttering platitudes then we can win the next election".

It is primarily a tory mess - created by, amplified by and doubled down on by the tories, sure. But on such an important issue, the Official opposition really ought to be doing more than playing ineffective games, or whipping their MPs and Lords to support the government position.

[StefanAVFC]

They should be opposing it at every turn.

Say what you want about the centrists (or the centre-right PLP as some people put it) at least they're opposing Brexit at every step.

[ml1dch]

22 hours ago, Jon said:

Yup.  Add in things like nationalisation (water, trains, energy etc), the NHS, education, foodbanks, tax avoidance, widening poverty gap, homelessness etc.  Brexit is super important, but it certainly isn't the only issue. 

Bicks and Chris have pretty much covered it.

It's a bit like in the summer when the club was facing potential bankruptcy, everything else depended on the outcome of that.

Yes, we needed a new goalkeeper. But there was little point discussing the merits of those available until we knew whether the club still existed.

[Dr_Pangloss]

I voted for Corbyn last time, but this time I won't be bothering, his stance on Brexit has pretty much tipped me over, but also in light Dawn Butler's recent comments, someone who would most likely be in the cabinet if Corbyn did win, I just cannot vote for a party who pushes an agenda that boarders on the loony part of the left. Sadly there's no sensible slightly-left-of-centre option, I think British politics is in it's worst state in a very long time indeed.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Dr_Pangloss

[bickster]

17 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I voted for Corbyn last time, but this time I won't be bothering, his stance on Brexit has pretty much tipped me over, but also in light Dawn Butler's recent comments, someone who would most likely be in the cabinet if Corbyn did win, I just cannot vote for a party who pushes an agenda that boarders on the loony part of the left. Sadly there's no sensible slightly-left-of-centre option, I think British politics is in it's worst state in a very long time indeed.

Is this regarding Jamie Olivers "cultural appropriation" of jerk?

She's a grade A plum, anyone who thinks Jamie Oliver's Rice in a packet is worthy of comment beyond no thanks is an imbecile

[Dr_Pangloss]

3 minutes ago, bickster said:

Is this regarding Jamie Olivers "cultural appropriation" of jerk?

She's a grade A plum, anyone who thinks Jamie Oliver's Rice in a packet is worthy of comment beyond no thanks is an imbecile

Add to her Naz Shah who also has a prominent position and is a flat out vile racist.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Dr_Pangloss

[HanoiVillan]

Re: 'Brexit is the only issue'

It is a bad idea, for reasons both obvious and more hidden, for Labour to talk about nothing but Brexit, or to continually promote it above other issues, until March 30th next year. 

Starting with the more obvious point first. There are still seven months until Brexit Day, and the Conservatives are in government, and there is no conceivable benefit on giving them a pass on other issues for seven months. They are still ruling the country, still taking or not taking decisions, doing things that a government does, and they need to be challenged on those things. It serves nobody's benefit to just handwave issues away because Brexit is bigger. Can't run the prisons? Who cares. Your kids' school, which you're very happy with, is being taken over by a failing academy trust? Quit moaning, Brexit is coming! Live in a tower block covered in flammable cladding, and the landlord is charging you an unaffordable sum to replace it? Well, society might collapse, so then we'll all die won't we. 

The problem is credibility, and the possibility that the consensus that has formed on this website that Brexit is going to be somewhere between insanely damaging and actually cataclysmic, might turn out to be wrong, or at least overstated. Now, don't get me wrong, Brexit is a stupid idea, I've been against it all along, and the negotiations are visibly going terribly, with no obvious way out. But predicting the future is hard. In the spring of 2016, many of the same posters in this thread were in another thread, myself very much included, damaging their (our) credibility by predicting much greater economic consequences after the Brexit vote than actually occurred. Of course we're just a microcosm of much of 'elite' opinion in doing so. And the problem with that has been that those predictions have made it much harder to persuade people to the Remain cause, and now it's too late. 

Now, I know the retort will be 'it's completely different this time!' And obviously it is, completely. But it's also possible that predictions of doom come March next year will be wrong again, but for completely different reasons. In particular, people on this site underestimate the chance that the Tories will pull a rabbit out of the hat in the form of some can-kicking arrangement that gives us a basically ceremonial Brexit next year, and delays the really painful parts until some time in the future, ideally (from a Tory point of view) after the next election, and the Tories lose lots of credibility, but hey, the planes didn't stop flying and the cancer drugs are still in the hospitals, and suddenly the doomsayers look foolish again. Or maybe some other rabbit. 

Maybe that won't happen. Maybe it will be the worst possible scenario after all. But whatever happens with Brexit, the sun will rise in the morning on March 30th, and on the 31st, and so on. This isn't the end of history. In all bar the Mad Max scenarios, government will continue, and Labour will need to do the normal work of opposition, which will require opinions and policies about different topics, which they need to research and think about and develop and advertise over the next seven months as per normal. And in the Mad Max scenario, there will be such an enormous political crisis that almost anything could happen, including Labour quickly entering power. 

Because history isn't going to stop, the Labour party's mission to govern the country in a socialist or social democratic fashion also won't stop. And it would clearly be absurd for Jeremy Corbyn to chime in with pundits saying that Brexit will make all his plans unaffordable, both because it isn't actually true, and because it's a Tory attack line waiting to happen. Labour have to believe that they are ready to govern their country. They can't just wait until March 30th and throw their hands up saying 'guess that's it lads, socialism's over, anybody got any good rodent cookery books'. So everybody above who is busy saying things like 'Brexit is what will decide whether we can do anything about homelessness' - guess what, Brexit is happening anyway, and we'll still need to do something about homelessness next year, and you'll still have the usual choice between Tory and Labour to decide whether to address it, and if so how to address it, and that's the same for every other issue, be it food banks or wage stagnation or council services or bailed-out academy trusts or bailed-out prison operators or bailed-out rail franchises.

Edited August 20, 2018 by HanoiVillan

[tonyh29]

12 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

you'll still have the usual choice between Tory and Labour to decide whether to address it, and if so how to address it, and that's the same for every other issue, be it food banks or wage stagnation or council services or bailed-out academy trusts or bailed-out prison operators or bailed-out rail franchises.

it's not really been a choice though has it , to quote Bicks , it's the same shit just a different colour tie , you're just voting X factor style on a personality , hence why people like Brown and Milliband both lost

Corbyn we hear is different , I guess we'd only find out if he were to be elected , but somehow me thinks his policies , sorry aspirations , will soon go out the window and we'll get more of the same shit just with a tie with gravy stains on it

[blandy]

14 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

it would clearly be absurd for Jeremy Corbyn to chime in with pundits saying that Brexit will make all his plans unaffordable, both because it isn't actually true

That's right. They're unaffordable even without Brexit.

(it was an open goal)

[blandy]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

Corbyn we hear is different , I guess we'd only find out if he were to be elected , but somehow me thinks his policies , sorry aspirations , will soon go out the window and we'll get more of the same shit just with a tie with gravy stains on it

The last Labour manifesto was a mix of half good and half stupid plans. It was certainly "different".

[OutByEaster?]

 

4 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

Corbyn we hear is different , I guess we'd only find out if he were to be elected , but somehow me thinks his policies , sorry aspirations , will soon go out the window and we'll get more of the same shit just with a tie with gravy stains on it

Twist and maybe get crap or stick with the crap you already have?

Tony, you seem to advocating buying the same shit straight out of the box rather than risking something better that might not come to pass.

[PompeyVillan]

I honestly thought Labours last manifesto was low risk.  

Put it this way, with a Labour government there would have been no Brexit. Brexit is a much, much bigger threat to the prosperity of the nation than a slight rise in corporation tax and more committed spending on public infrastructure that we all need. 

But yeh, the Tories will talk about magic money trees and Labours lack of economic credibility then hand over a massive DUP sized bribe from the public finances in order to desperately cling to power. 

[tonyh29]

58 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Twist and maybe get crap or stick with the crap you already have?

Tony, you seem to advocating buying the same shit straight out of the box rather than risking something better that might not come to pass.

isn't that why you voted remain

 

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by tonyh29

[StefanAVFC]

1 hour ago, PompeyVillan said:

Put it this way, with a Labour government there would have been no Brexit. 

Labour's 2017 manifesto was pro Brexit

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, PompeyVillan said:

Put it this way, with a Labour government there would have been no Brexit.

Really?

'Labour accepts the referendum result...' (2017 manifesto p.24)

[OutByEaster?]

53 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

isn't that why you voted remain

Ha. It's pretty much the opposite - I voted for the weaker of two evils - the increasingly affected EU which still had pockets of resistance to corporate influence over a completely infected conservative government. The EU still had a little hope , the way it had revisited TTIP was evidence that it was still possible for it to be affected by public opinion, some form of genuine democracy - so I voted for that. Corbyn brings a lot more, so I'll vote for that. I'm not a Labour voter by tradition - I haven't voted for Labour for about twenty years - politics was dead to me, red and blue as two heads of the same business party - I'll vote Labour because of Corbyn - the question for Labour is whether there are more people out there that do that or more that don't vote Labour because of Corbyn.

 

 

 

[PompeyVillan]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

Really?

'Labour accepts the referendum result...' (2017 manifesto p.24)

Okay, I'm going back a bit, but the Brexit referendum was promised by David Cameron and not Labour. Although admittedly I now doubt my recollection of that fact. 

[bickster]

1 hour ago, PompeyVillan said:

Okay, I'm going back a bit, but the Brexit referendum was promised by David Cameron and not Labour. Although admittedly I now doubt my recollection of that fact. 

We’ve had another election since then

[HanoiVillan]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

We’ve had another election since then

Sure. But the point is still true, though I suppose it would have been clearer if it said 'under Ed Miliband' after 'Labour government'. 

[bickster]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

Sure. But the point is still true, though I suppose it would have been clearer if it said 'under Ed Miliband' after 'Labour government'. 

Not sure what you’ve got to do with this. I was responding to @PompeyVillan. He appeared to think Labour’s last manifesto had a commitment to Remain in the EU, it didn’t