OutByEaster? Posted February 9, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2019 13 hours ago, StefanAVFC said: I know it's unprincipled for a lot of the party but Labour need a Blair again to win. I think another Blair would end the Labour party - Blair and Blairness would be an existential threat to what Labour is and should be. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 13 hours ago, chrisp65 said: I think on blind testing of policies, people are broadly Labour. They want fairness and access to housing, jobs and education for all etc.. Then something weird happens, an election arrives and they want to keep any perceived advantage they've scraped together and they want the value of their ex council house protected, they dislike teachers, they dislike kids and they dislike worker serfs, and they vote tory. Or perhaps there is just a disconnect between what people say they want (even to themselves) when they feel might be judged by the rest of society vs where their actual self interest lies, which they are free to exercise in the privacy of the ballot box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 51 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I think another Blair would end the Labour party - Blair and Blairness would be an existential threat to what Labour is and should be. I think for those of a certain age then they would associate the Labour party with Blair and being at best a centre party or perhaps in reality centre right. The Labour party we have now is alien to them but it is much closer to what it should always have been which is a left wing socialist party. I got to be honest as someone who never turned 18 until the early 90's and spent much of my voting life with either a Smith, Blair, Brown led Labour party then I too got used to that and the shift to the left has taken some getting used to. It is though now much closer to my socialist beliefs than it has ever been. It has to sort itself out though and can't carry on with those of a centre right persuasion, the Chukka Umanas, Chris Leslies etc, as MP's as it will never be united. I know some say that a socialist left wing party will never be elected but I don't see that as meaning Labour should again become something it is really not. Corbyn is now too tarnished to ever be Prime Minister but with the right leadership with many of the policies they currently have I think it is possible to see a more left wing Labour government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Corbyn's policies (most of them) and a new face is what the Labour Party needs. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 TBH, any comments along the lines of 'the country would never vote for a government with X philosophy' are always nonsense, pretty much no matter what X is. Situations are always changing, and people's reactions to those changes are impossible to predict accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) Seems like Stal..err Corbyn wants to get rid of his most popular MP's because they voice their opinions on his horrible ways of dealing with internal strife. I'm not a big fan of Luciana Berger either, but she's sure popular in her constituency. The fact that she mentions antisemitism when she gets all sort of horrible comments directed at her from Corbyn-supporting Labour members for being part of a pro-Israel group is natural, isn't it? Instead of condemning the comments people attack Berger. Labour's a mess. Couldn't oppose a chocolate wall in a desert. Corbyn's issues won't go away until he actually expels people for being antisemitic rather than inviting them to his conferences and associating with them in his spare time. Edited February 9, 2019 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 On 09/02/2019 at 14:23, HanoiVillan said: To put my own cards on the table, I would be perfectly happy if both Hoey and Berger were deselected, but it's much more likely that neither will be, and the 'broad church' will continue to exist. Worth noting that both were parachuted in. Hoey was imposed as a candidate by the then-Blairite central machinery. Berger, a friend of Euan Blair, had no connection with the area but lived with the former MP and her partner for several weeks during the selection process. The partner was running the selection process, and completed ballots were returned to the house where Berger was living, a process which shall we say doesn't engender trust and confidence. She was reportedly widely perceived as an imported middle-class careerist with no understanding of local issues, including not knowing who Bill Shankly was. There are others round the country, similarly lined up for safe seats by mates in the central party machinery. The right wing of the party has been doing this for decades, and this is part of the reason why some MPs are at odds with local members; they often weren't the product of a free and fair selection in the first place, and many of them wouldn't have been selected if the process hadn't been slanted. I wonder whether either of them have ever been viewed with much confidence by local party members. EDIT: This and subsequent posts moved from a different topic, no one's fault just happens - Bicks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Well, this was a total shock, I can tell you. People making up lies to portray the Labour Party as antisemitic? And with involvement from Israel? Surely not! More bollocks Quote From the start, reporting of the “anti-Semitism crisis” in the UK’s Labour Party has been characterized by dishonesty, exaggeration and outright fabrication. The real target of this manufactured crisis is not genuine anti-Semites, but Jeremy Corbyn and the wider Palestine solidarity movement. But now additional evidence has come to light of a disturbing trend which has been fueling the fire lit since Corbyn’s first leadership victory in September 2015. An investigation by The Electronic Intifada has documented 10 fake Twitter profiles posing as Corbyn supporters who have been posting virulent anti-Semitism. The accounts share sufficient similarities to indicate that the same person – or group – is running them. Without police involvement or a court case, it’s impossible to know for sure who is behind this troll network. But whoever it is, they are clearly attempting to smear Labour as an anti-Semitic party... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 9, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2019 8 hours ago, magnkarl said: Seems like Stal..err Corbyn wants to get rid of his most popular MP's Popular with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 10 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: Popular with you? Look up Luciana Berger's poll/vote figures and ask most people who vote Labour in Liverpool what they think of her - also please look at my post which said "... I'm not a big fan of Luciana Berger either.." before your Corbyn defense shields go down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 9, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2019 Edit. Forget it, there's no point arguing with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, peterms said: Well, this was a total shock, I can tell you. People making up lies to portray the Labour Party as antisemitic? And with involvement from Israel? Surely not! More bollocks Not sure where to start here. Are you saying that Labour has had no issues with people being racist towards Jews? Was Ken Livingstone not being an idiot, and furthermore, was leaving him in the party for 2 years a decent decision? Was liking and reposting posts on Facebook saying we should deport Jews by MP Naz Shah not anti-semitic, as well as writing "problem solved" under an idea of wanting to deport all Jews to the US? The examples of this idiocy goes on for pages and pages about Labour's left wing. Are you saying that the way Corbyn's handled it is alright, and if so, why does this keep happening over and over? I assure you the kind of vitriol that Jewish MP's, CEO's, public figures and so on receive from elements of labour's far left is no "lies". If you want to paint some kind of picture because you've read an article somewhere online pointing the whole thing to some conspiracy then I'm afraid you're not getting the point. Israel does pump shedloads of money into all sorts of idiocy, so does most other rich states in the world including left leaning states. That doesn't mean that idiots aren't idiots who can't differentiate a British citizen from an Israeli one or differentiate the policies of Netanyahu from that of the whole Jewish population of planet earth. Edited February 10, 2019 by magnkarl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 10, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2019 You know how in the old movies, where there was a call of the jungle and the hero would come running in a time of need? It jumps to mind. I dunno why. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 ignore is your friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 30 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Not sure where to start here. Oh, I think you had a good idea. Even if you didn't, we did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 10, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2019 17 hours ago, peterms said: Worth noting that both were parachuted in. ..... The right wing of the party has been doing this for decades, and this is part of the reason why some MPs are at odds with local members; they often weren't the product of a free and fair selection in the first place, and many of them wouldn't have been selected if the process hadn't been slanted.... Not just the right wing. Corbynites have also followed the parachuting in method. Unions, too have strong influence in some seats. It’s another small example of the many things which when all piled up helped cause a broken British democracy and Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 10, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2019 18 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: I agree; the objection to Berger is not to do with her voting record, but to do with her public statements. It also shows that Corbyn and Labour moderates have more in common with each other over Brexit than anyone would think.... Don’t agree on Corbyn. Corbyn is clearly pro Brexit, almost regardless of consequence or type of Brexit. Labour Party policy, which is not set by Corbyn, is different to that personal view of his. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 10 hours ago, magnkarl said: Are you saying that Labour has had no issues with people being racist towards Jews? No, and I'm not aware of anyone having said that. What has been said repeatedly is that there is a deliberate campaign to paint Corbyn supporters as antisemitic, for wider political purposes such as defence of Israel from criticism, or to discredit Corbyn and his supporters more generally. Some people think that is not the case, and that it's all real. The article illustrates some of the fabrications which have happened in pursuit of this aim. I'd have thought that anyone who is genuinely concerned about antisemitism would be keen to differentiate actual cases from lies and exaggeration, and to deal with the actual cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 22 minutes ago, blandy said: Not just the right wing. Corbynites have also followed the parachuting in method. Unions, too have strong influence in some seats. All political groups aim to get their supporters into positions of power. In the case of selection of candidates, where for example groups on the right, left and centre do this by organising, trying to lobby for support among members, and encourage supporters to turn up at selection meetings, this is seen as acceptable and unobjectionable. What I think is different is where the central party machinery is used to override local parties or distort the process, for example by suspending a party and imposing a candidate, or persuading a retiring MP to delay their announcement of retirement until close enough to an election that a normal selection can't be held and a shortlist is determined centrally instead, with the retiring MP being given a reward for their co-operation, like a peerage. There was a long period where in the Labour Party, the right wing controlled enough of the party structure to be able to pull tricks like this. That seems to me to cross a line from a democratic process, to one that isn't. It's a problem for the selected candidate as well, to some extent. In the case of Hoey, for example, there was simmering resentment about what happened for a long time, and this exacerbated divisions among party members. Clearly the outcome of getting her in place was thought worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 10, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2019 Just now, peterms said: All political groups aim to get their supporters into positions of power. In the case of selection of candidates, where for example groups on the right, left and centre do this by organising, trying to lobby for support among members, and encourage supporters to turn up at selection meetings, this is seen as acceptable and unobjectionable. What I think is different is where the central party machinery is used to override local parties or distort the process, for example by suspending a party and imposing a candidate, or persuading a retiring MP to delay their announcement of retirement until close enough to an election that a normal selection can't be held and a shortlist is determined centrally instead, with the retiring MP being given a reward for their co-operation, like a peerage. There was a long period where in the Labour Party, the right wing controlled enough of the party structure to be able to pull tricks like this. That seems to me to cross a line from a democratic process, to one that isn't. It's a problem for the selected candidate as well, to some extent. In the case of Hoey, for example, there was simmering resentment about what happened for a long time, and this exacerbated divisions among party members. Clearly the outcome of getting her in place was thought worth it. Yes, I agree. It’s now something Corbyn’s labour does, too, now the left wing controls enough of the party to do exactly the same. The temptation, whether left or right to pick favourites, reward allies, parachute in ideological allies, indulge in a spot of nepotism or to return a favour, scratch a back - it’s something that will always happen, with humans being humans and a system that doesn’t prevent it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts