chrisp65 Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said: Where are the opposition right now after that abomination of a statement by TM? 11 minutes ago, villakram said: People going mad about Labor are really missing this point. It's a sinking ship and the Tory crew are doing a fine job at dum-dee-da'n. Also, it's not as if there is a clear majority in favor of a pro-Brexit position. So, would you ** try** to take over when a change of course is not especially tractable at the current time. The time is not right, but it is getting closer and closer. The 'opposition' aren't opposing because they have the same vague leave agenda with no real plan beyond 'brexit for jobs'. They were on QT last night and the attitude was that they'll let the tories get us out of europe, watch the economy crash and get in power off the back of all our misery. What an utter disgrace. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: The 'opposition' aren't opposing because they have the same vague leave agenda with no real plan beyond 'brexit for jobs'. They were on QT last night and the attitude was that they'll let the tories get us out of europe, watch the economy crash and get in power off the back of all our misery. What an utter disgrace. I disagree with that. First, Labour should be looking to force an election, not just a second referendum. There is a possibility that the tories will fall apart so badly that an election becomes inevitable. In that scenario, an extension to the A50 deadline would become attractive to the EU. Compared to that, doing what the centrists want, and trying to secure some procedural means of getting a second referendum would stand more chance of dividing Labour and its base. It would also make it easier for the tories to try to heal at least some of their divisions. Second, and related, is that Labour can't move too quickly to oppose Brexit before more people have realised what a total mess it will be, in the form of Brexit the tories now seem to be stumbling into. Politically, Labour need to be seen to respond to a changed national mood, not to engage in procedural manoeuvres to overturn a popular vote. This enrages the right and centre, who want Labour to oppose Brexit loudly and immediately. But it makes sense. In that context, stepping back from Brexit would become easier, would command more support, and would not be politically damaging to anything like the same extent. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: The 'opposition' aren't opposing because they have the same vague leave agenda with no real plan beyond 'brexit for jobs'. They were on QT last night and the attitude was that they'll let the tories get us out of europe, watch the economy crash and get in power off the back of all our misery. What an utter disgrace. Very true. I wasn't commenting on their political policies (or the absence thereof), more their strategy. It's simply amazing that the almost 50% of the British population who are against Brexit have essentially no coherent democratically elected political representation at the moment. Who would have thought you lot would be thankful for the house of entitled prick Lords & Ladies. I do have some hope that they are playing the game eluded to above by @peterms, but they are keeping their cards very close to their chests if they are. Edited September 21, 2018 by villakram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Just now, villakram said: Very true. I wasn't commenting on their political policies (or the absence thereof), more their strategy. It's simply amazing that the almost 50% of the British population who are against Brexit have essentially no coherent democratically elected political representation at the moment. Who would have thought you lot would be thankful for the house of entitled prick Lords & Ladies. Problem is, even the third largest UK party will also have an interest in this happening and going wrong. Though to be fair, the SNP are being far more honest about our current trajectory. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 21, 2018 Moderator Share Posted September 21, 2018 I get the impression things may change with Labour and Brexit over the course if the Party Conference. The size of the March for a second referendum on Sunday might actually shock them. 130 different CLPs have tabled motions on it. Party democracy might actually finally bite Corbyn on the arse this time. It's too little too late, in order to oppose Brexut, sadly Labour need to ditch Mr 6.5 before any change in policy will be effective as hell just sit there and mumble his support in an entirely indifferent manner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Labour need to ditch Mr 6.5 before any change in policy will be effective as hell just sit there and mumble his support in an entirely indifferent manner Very harsh. It was 7, not 6.5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 1 hour ago, ml1dch said: Mad that Labour are planning to talk about party governance issues at their party conference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 You know, when Villa are losing 1-0 in the last five minutes, I find it pretty annoying when the other team just keep the ball by our corner flag, but however annoyed I get I can of course understand the alignment of incentives that make that the correct course of action for them. However much I might want them to pointlessly turn over possession, I get why they're trying not to do that. By a very similar token, I can also see that there is absolutely no point risking knocking May's incompetence off the lead of the evening news, to be replaced by Krishnan Guru-Murthy asking some shadow cabinet member a hundred and fifty different variations on 'so are you categorically ruling out a second referendum?' I get why people who have no particular love for or allegiance to Labour find that annoying, for sure, but the bottom line is that needlessly offering that opportunity would be the incompetent thing to do this evening. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 22 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Mad that Labour are planning to talk about party governance issues at their party conference. Oh sure, sensible administration and well-filed paperwork is essential to make sure you have an functioning party. But maybe chat about that as well as, rather than instead of the biggest political crisis the country has faced in half a century? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Oh sure, sensible administration and well-filed paperwork is essential to make sure you have an functioning party. But maybe chat about that as well as, rather than instead of the biggest political crisis the country has faced in half a century? A glance at conference schedules and, as mentioned above, the 100+ constituency parties weighing in, suggests that they will, in fact, also be talking about Brexit. Maybe not as much as some would like, but then again, it would be a bit daft to spend the entire conference talking about one of the main issues that cause vehement disagreements in the party, rather than some of the things that people can actually agree on. But yes, it will be discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: You know, when Villa are losing 1-0 in the last five minutes, I find it pretty annoying when the other team just keep the ball by our corner flag, but however annoyed I get I can of course understand the alignment of incentives that make that the correct course of action for them. However much I might want them to pointlessly turn over possession, I get why they're trying not to do that. By a very similar token, I can also see that there is absolutely no point risking knocking May's incompetence off the lead of the evening news, to be replaced by Krishnan Guru-Murthy asking some shadow cabinet member a hundred and fifty different variations on 'so are you categorically ruling out a second referendum?' I get why people who have no particular love for or allegiance to Labour find that annoying, for sure, but the bottom line is that needlessly offering that opportunity would be the incompetent thing to do this evening. Except its not 'this evening', it's the last 455 consecutive evenings. We've had Labour supporters on here 'arguing' or discussing whether Labour's policy was really leave or actually remain. How do you put real pressure on May and the tories? Look like a credible alternative. When 50% more people think dancing coughing squeeky shit show May is still a better option than you, that's when you need to step up and stop concentrating on your navel. When 2 years in to this brexit farce we haven't got a plan, and two thirds of the electorate think brexit is the top priority issue, but the opposition only has a 4% lead in the polls with a 3% margin for error. It's time to do something more than simply wait to be the rebound shag. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 22, 2018 Moderator Share Posted September 22, 2018 6 hours ago, peterms said: doing what the centrists want, and trying to secure some procedural means of getting a second referendum would stand more chance of dividing Labour and its base. I’ve got some news for you.... Most Labour Party members are against Brexit. Most Labour MPs are against Brexit. Labour’s leader is pro Brexit, More Labour constituencies were pro Brexit, though there’s evidence that may no longer be the case. Momentum is pro Corbyn, the MPs are mostly, against, or sullenly tolerant only, of Corbyn. Significant chunks of Labour’s union support is against Brexit. There are campaigns by some MPs to unseat other MPs, and by some CLPs to deselect their MPs. whatever the merits of any side of any of those different issues, Labour is horribly divided already. A competent Leader of Labour, now, would be all over the press and TV, calling out the hapless May, her humiliation in Europe her potty right wingers and calling for her to immediately set up a joint cross party parliamentary Brexit team, with the aim of rescuing the country from her incompetence. He should be, for example, playing the “look like a PM” card, calling for parliament, including Scotland, Wales, NI parliaments to jointly address the short term crisis the tories have led us into. Given the lamentable inability of the tories to remotely settle amongst themselves, let alone with the EU, what they want from Brexit, this joint team should be tasked with, in the interests of protecting British jobs, the Union...etc, recommending, to the whole of Parliament the best option from the following list. 1. Norway style free trade and customs union version. Off the shelf, tweakable and to an extent the closest thing to a “jobs first” Brexit. 2. Canada style trade agreement, also tweakable. 3. Hard Brexit. Then, do this 4. In the light of the illegality of the Leave campaigns actions, whether the ref should be deemed invalid and a new ref held, choosing between parliaments chosen pick from the 3 options, or remaining. instead of Catweazle hiding in his shed, watching the tories clusterpork the country, and dreaming of his imaginary Venezuelan idyll, he should be looking like the Statesman, like a pm in waiting, like the solution the nation needs. sorry, it’s 5 am. I’m clearly hallucinating. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 22, 2018 Moderator Share Posted September 22, 2018 7 hours ago, ml1dch said: Very harsh. It was 7, not 6.5 I was too busy looking for a brick to throw at the telly to remember the minutiae. It was a deliberate act of sabotage as far as I was concerned, a 6 year old could have avoided that question with more skill than him. He was meant to be campaigning to remain in the EU, if he wasn't up to the job of hiding his true feelings he shouldn't gave been doing what he was doing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 3 hours ago, blandy said: A competent Leader of Labour, now, would be all over the press and TV, calling out the hapless May, her humiliation in Europe her potty right wingers and calling for her to immediately set up a joint cross party parliamentary Brexit team, with the aim of rescuing the country from her incompetence More like rescue May from her incompetence. This is a variant of the "government of national unity" idea proposed yesterday by that profound political thinker Adrian Chiles. Many people in Labour's base are pro-Brexit, and the party needs to bring them onside as far as possible. The alternative is tiresome patricians like David Miliband confusing lofty metropolitan pronouncements with statesmanship. That won't wash. Tactically, it also makes much more sense to let the spotlight remain on the tories, though Milibands's vanity seems to override that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 1 hour ago, peterms said: More like rescue May from her incompetence. This is a variant of the "government of national unity" idea proposed yesterday by that profound political thinker Adrian Chiles. Indeed. These are some not good ideas: 5 hours ago, blandy said: whatever the merits of any side of any of those different issues, Labour is horribly divided already. A competent Leader of Labour, now, would be all over the press and TV, calling out the hapless May, her humiliation in Europe The leader of the 'horribly divided' party would be in the media, knocking Tory incompetence off the top of the news, making bold claims on a divisive issue that would inevitably infuriate many people within his party whatever they were, in the week before party conference. 4 hours ago, blandy said: He should be, for example, playing the “look like a PM” card, calling for parliament, including Scotland, Wales, NI parliaments to jointly address the short term crisis the tories have led us into. He should allow the media to accuse him of asking the devolved assemblies to stop Brexit. 5 hours ago, blandy said: Given the lamentable inability of the tories to remotely settle amongst themselves, let alone with the EU, what they want from Brexit, this joint team should be tasked with, in the interests of protecting British jobs, the Union...etc, He should allow the creation of a government of national unity, which would inevitably sideline both him personally and Labour generally, and allow Theresa May to bestride British politics like **** Winston Churchill. None of us are political strategists, but if these are the best alternatives to his current course of action, it's not worth changing course. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, peterms said: Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. I see that Barry Gardiner also tweeted this crap yesterday afternoon. If that's the best he and his party have got then Labour can go and **** itself. Edited September 22, 2018 by snowychap 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 15 hours ago, peterms said: First, Labour should be looking to force an election, not just a second referendum. I don't see how they are in or get in to a position where they can 'force' anything. By what mechanism do they get to force an election? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 It's a perfectly reasonable response 'do nothing, say nothing, let them cook'. For one issue for a week. For a bad conference or a vote of no confidence. Or a scandal in one of the Sundays. But we are literally talking about years here. Years. It's achieved a 4 point lead against a government in chaos that's heading towards disaster and patently doesn't know what to do. It's the wrong tactic and has been the wrong tactic for quite some time. Genuinely feel for all the people that have thrown their energy behind what looked like and what could have been a brave new dawn. It still could be, even now it's not too late. They have genuine popular policies in the background. But their implementation strategy of needing to see the country really suffer first, well that's so bad, so high risk, I can't get behind it. There will be no super windfall for the NHS if the economy takes a significant and sustained hit first. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, snowychap said: I don't see how they are in or get in to a position where they can 'force' anything. By what mechanism do they get to force an election? And even if they do, does a narrow Labour majority trying to implement the unimplementable with an illiterate policy work much better than a propped-up Tory Government trying to implement the unimplementable with an illiterate policy? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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