The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, peterms said:

What is happening in Venezuela is yet another US-inspired attempt at overthrowing a government in order to steal natural resources, in this case oil.  The playbook is described here, referring to a plan from 15 years ago, now being acted out.

The people who need condemning in this situation are the CIA and the US government, who are seeking to create a situation which can be used as a fig leaf for armed aggression.  I don't suppose we will hear much about the fact that this year, six times more US citizens have been killed by police than the number of Venezuelans killed in clashes.  Calling for an end to violence and for a political solution seems very reasonable.  That wouldn't suit the US, though.

I don't disagree with you, I just think Crobyn should have been much more clear on his condemnation when it's primarily Maduro who is perpetrating the violence. He's also not won the election fairly, so no matter how many times people scream USA he needs to step down and let the democratic process commence. That is surely also the best way to get USA to look elsewhere.

[OutByEaster?]

22 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Let the democratic process commence. That is surely also the best way to get USA to look elsewhere.

Like with Hamas?

The US doesn't really believe in democracy - it's proven that time and time again, both at home and abroad - it just likes the word.

I think in general, Corbyn chooses to side with the side that's right - Ireland is an island, it should be one country - it's not because an imperialist power (in this case us) needed its natural resources (in this case its ports) - Palestine should be a flourishing member of the international community, it's an open prison being starved to death because an imperialist power (in this case the USA) supports a client state that needed its natural resources (in this case land), Venezuela should be one of the richest nations on earth, a Saudi Arabia of South America, it's not because over more than half a century an imperialist power (in this case corporate USA) has systematically prevented any form of stability that might result in Venezuelans rather than US oil companies benefitting from its natural resources (in this case oil.)

What's often wrong about siding with the side that's right is that oppression breeds violence and chaos from which unsavoury groups often emerge - to believe in a united Ireland doesn't mean believing in blowing up shopping centres, to believe in a free Palestinian state doesn't mean believing in suicide bombings, to believe in a Venezuela that exists primarily for the benefit of Venezuelans doesn't mean believing in whatever bad things our papers are peddling today - but - it's hard to separate these things, and in politics in particular that separation becomes incredibly difficult when the forces of violence and chaos become the only place where resistance converges, it's hard to find anyone else to talk to about the bit that's right when all that's out there are violent men.

I'm not particularly familiar with the argument about the newspaper article, but I'm guessing the difficulty wasn't in how it compared to political discussion with difficult groups, I'm guessing it's because it was fundamentally 'not right'. Method and means are very difficult paths, but I think that initial judgement is simpler.

 

[peterms]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

it's primarily Maduro who is perpetrating the violence.

This is just not the case.

Opposition parties refused to accept the result of the election, claiming fraud despite there being no evidence, and have since attempted to overthrow the government by force, aided and abetted by the US (as usual).

Obviously, any elected government is going to resist this, is it not?

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

... step down and let the democratic process commence. That is surely also the best way to get USA to look elsewhere.

 

[magnkarl]

2 hours ago, peterms said:

This is just not the case.

Opposition parties refused to accept the result of the election, claiming fraud despite there being no evidence, and have since attempted to overthrow the government by force, aided and abetted by the US (as usual).

Obviously, any elected government is going to resist this, is it not?

Are you honestly suggesting that Chavez and his regime has conducted fair elections?

HMRC, UN and all these other independent organisations have condemned Chavezites for years for rigging elections. It's not hard to see. Why would someone who let his country go down the drain by enriching his close social circle be re-elected for some 15 years? Come on.

Hamas? There's other alternatives in Palestine that do the same without sending rockets into Israel. I think Corbyn enjoys being a rebel. He doesn't have any leadership qualities except going against the grain. We've got Theresa "strong and stable" in government and Jeremey "Rebel Rebel" Corbyn as the leader of the opposition. Both of them are tied down by foreign connections. Theresa has to be careful with Saudi Arabia and Jeremy is afraid to tell his dictator friends they need to stop killing people because they support the same fundamental ideology that he does. 

What is there to gain for the Labour party's friendship with Maduro/USPV when they've clearly failed at their political project by enriching a very select group of people at the cost of 32 million other citizens?

Here's a nice breakdown for you:

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Heres-Your-Guide-to-Understanding-Protest-Deaths-in-Venezuela-20170422-0016.html

49 people have been shot protesting, 5 policemen have been killed, 30 innocent bystanders have been killed, 15 barricade personnel have been killed, 13 looters have been killed. I'm sure the supreme overlords, USA, are the reason for all these murders, right? It's not the crazy socialist dictator that won't let people hold free elections without sending his cronies into areas, intimidating, liquidating, killing and harassing the populace into voting for him.

Here's a whole article from the Human Rights Watch on how Chavez and Maduro rigged elections. https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/03/05/venezuela-chavezs-authoritarian-legacy - think Al Capone, just Venezuelan. This is the same Human Rights Watch who consistently criticise America, so you can't use your "it's American influence"-card on them.

Edited August 20, 2017 by magnkarl

[bickster]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Are you honestly suggesting that Chavez and his regime has conducted fair elections?

HMRC, UN and all these other independent organisations have condemned Chavezites for years for rigging elections. It's not hard to see. Why would someone who let his country go down the drain by enriching his close social circle be re-elected for some 15 years? Come on.

 

It's true, I find your posts rather taxing but come on 

[magnkarl]

22 minutes ago, bickster said:

It's true, I find your posts rather taxing but come on 

Hehe, it's a funny abbreviation for Brits. Tho it means Human Rights Commission, I wish they'd find a better abbreviation, like HRC.

Edited August 20, 2017 by magnkarl

[bickster]

8 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Hehe, it's a funny abbreviation for Brits. Tho it means Human Rights Commission, I wish they'd find a better abbreviation, like HRC.

They already have... OHCHR... Office for the High Commissioner for Human Rights.

[snowychap]

8 hours ago, magnkarl said:

it's a funny abbreviation for Brits. Tho it means Human Rights Commission

In what country do you use the acronym HMRC to mean Human Rights Commission?

What Human Rights Commission do you mean by 'HMRC'? The UN Human Rights Council? The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights?

[PompeyVillan]

HMRC - Heavy Monkeys Ride Camels.

[peterms]

11 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Are you honestly suggesting that Chavez and his regime has conducted fair elections?

HMRC, UN and all these other independent organisations have condemned Chavezites for years for rigging elections. It's not hard to see. Why would someone who let his country go down the drain by enriching his close social circle be re-elected for some 15 years? Come on.

There is a description of the electoral process here.

Quote

...No election system is perfect, but Venezuela has one of the most efficient, secure and transparent electoral systems. “The election process in Venezuela is the best in the world,” said former President Jimmy Carter in 2012 — praise echoed by other neutral observers.

Venezuelan voters use electronic machines, which print out a paper receipt that allows voters to check their choices against the electronic ballot. After voting has ended, 54 percent of machines are audited at random, in the presence of witnesses from pro-government and opposition political parties, and compared with a tally of paper receipts. The National Electoral Council (CNE) has implemented additional safeguards and audits, making the process more inclusive than ever before, with 96.5 percent of eligible Venezuelans registered to vote (compared with fewer than 76 percent of eligible Americans)...

It compares quite well with the US system, don't you think?  Deregistration campaigns, targetting black people for criminal charges to get them off the register, hanging chads, old voting machines prone to "faults"...

Look, it's not hard to understand.  The US initiated a coup in Venezuela in 2002, which failed.  Since then they have been aiming for the overthrow of the government.  The tools they use are wide-ranging, including claims of electoral fraud, economic sanctions to create food shortages and civil unrest, training and arming opposition groups, and seeking a pretext for direct military intervention.

They have done the same, over and over again, in very many countries.  This is so well known as to be barely remarked upon - it has become assumed to be the normal state of affairs.

They are now stepping up their efforts to overthrow the elected government, and they will use the full range of tactics to do so.

[chrisp65]

I kind of presumed everyone knows about the coup attempts by the U.S. in Venezuela. It’s hardly new news, the U.S. trying to destabilise the Americas and install their own chosen dictators, they’ve done it up and down the continent for decades.
I presumed it was an ironical joke slipped in there, suggesting that being democratic would mean the U.S. leaves you alone. The guy’s not a fool.
 

[peterms]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

I kind of presumed everyone knows about the coup attempts by the U.S. in Venezuela. It’s hardly new news, the U.S. trying to destabilise the Americas and install their own chosen dictators, they’ve done it up and down the continent for decades.
I presumed it was an ironical joke slipped in there, suggesting that being democratic would mean the U.S. leaves you alone. The guy’s not a fool.
 

...and returning to the subject of the thread, this is why Labour isn't keen to engage in one-sided denunciations of Venezuela.

What is quite staggering is that large parts of the media should expect them to do so, instead of drawing attention to the very significant part Exxon has played down the years in trying to appropriate Venezuela's oil reserves and foment armed rebellion as a means to that end.  The fact that the former head of Exxon is now the US Secretary of State is staggering, and US policy on Venezuela will now be even more subject to the interests of Exxon than it was previously.  That's what we should be hearing about.

Imagine if the former head of Rosneft was given a lead role in the Russian government and was supporting armed insurrection against Norway in order to steal its oil, and our politicians were invited to criticise the Norwegian government for resisting.

[tonyh29]

Presumably Naz shah will be sacked  ... I mean resigning at some point today after falling for a spoof tweet that "Abused Rotherham girls should learn to keep their mouths shut for the sake of diversity " 

she had the sense to delete it but i think the sentiment was clear ... not to mention stupid 

[Seat68]

She really doesn't think does she. For clarity so as a poster doesn't come on and say labour supporters dont condemn when someone does something wrong, I condemn her for her idiocy. Consistently idiotic woman.

[HanoiVillan]

Yes, I've defended her in the past but that is inexcusable. 

[blandy]

On 8/21/2017 at 09:07, peterms said:

There is a description of the electoral process here.

It compares quite well with the US system, don't you think?  Deregistration campaigns, targetting black people for criminal charges to get them off the register, hanging chads, old voting machines prone to "faults"...

Look, it's not hard to understand.  The US initiated a coup in Venezuela in 2002, which failed.  Since then they have been aiming for the overthrow of the government.  The tools they use are wide-ranging, including claims of electoral fraud, economic sanctions to create food shortages and civil unrest, training and arming opposition groups, and seeking a pretext for direct military intervention.

They have done the same, over and over again, in very many countries.  This is so well known as to be barely remarked upon - it has become assumed to be the normal state of affairs.

They are now stepping up their efforts to overthrow the elected government, and they will use the full range of tactics to do so.

You two are talking about completely different things.

Venezuelan government human rights abuses and US attempts to instigate regime change going back 15+ years (or however you want to phrase it). Neither of those two different things excuses or justifies the other. They are both wrong.

Ongoing human rights abuses and state brutality in Venezuela is not rendered excusable and OK "because nasty USA/ George Bush/Exxon/Trump" and nice voting machines.

[peterms]

45 minutes ago, blandy said:

They are both wrong.

And the point regarding Corbyn is that he has been asked to criticise only the government, and has been attacked in some newspapers because he has criticised the violence on both sides.

[blandy]

14 minutes ago, peterms said:

And the point regarding Corbyn is that he has been asked to criticise only the government, and has been attacked in some newspapers because he has criticised the violence on both sides.

Yeah, I addressed that a page or so back and a couple of weeks ago, as well. Media game.

[Dr_Pangloss]

Naz Shah is an absolutely despicable and dangerous woman, she should not be an MP.