The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[darrenm]

27 minutes ago, dAVe80 said:

This thread is pretty depressing, and shows the fairly depressing state of play in the party at the moment. A total coincidence that Jess and most of the Young Labour Committee are on the left, I'm sure. No platform for Palistine Solidarity Campaign either. Getting harder and harder for me to justify being a member, but then I think that's the point. 

 

This Keir fellow just can't catch a break. Every time Labour proscribes a group there's a picture of him with them

 

[HanoiVillan]

The Starmer/Evans idea is that activism is destabilising, both because disagreement can be portrayed in the media as division, and because he is paranoid about being forced into a policy corner at conference over anything. They regard Labour members (correctly of course, it's what party members are) as biased and unrepresentative, and as such they look for signals in the wider media and culture for what to support, and then adopt things as they arise. Whatever appears to be the temper of the moment, Starmer will arrive at it quickly. The advantage of this is that by repeating current conventional wisdom, you make it hard for the media to land blows; the disadvantage is that you can easily appear to have no hinterland or principles.

The problem for Jess Barnard is very simple: she is of the left, and won her election by standing to the left. Starmer and Evans are not of the left, so they don't want her to have a prominent role at conference, because they suspect she will say things they don't like or cause negative headlines. Similarly, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign might provoke negative media coverage about anti-semitism (it's clear that in many parts of the media, expressing solidarity with Palestine is anti-semitism). Therefore Starmer and Evans do not want to let slip their iron grip on proceedings, so neither Barnard nor the PSC will be anywhere to be seen.

This leaves the left with a quandary, since if they have fewer opportunities for democratic participation *within* the party, they are left with the choice of submission or exit. This is the plan working as intended.

[dAVe80]

[HanoiVillan]

Oliver Kamm weighing in to say that Labour Students are actual Hitler, so there:

 

[Jareth]

Well Oliver Kamm's explanation goes someway at least to demonstrate the strength of madness and fear emanating from the frothing nutters who thought Jezza a threat to Jewish people and now young Labour architects of a second holocaust. Complete and utter looney tunes from what should be respectable media professionals. And now good old Starmer is vindicating their views with his actions. There will always be this opposition to anything resembling a socialist alternative in UK politics, time to get on with a new party and leave Labour to whatever they're looking to achieve. 

[chrisp65]

Are there actually that many Labour Party members calling for a second holocaust, or is this just some weird internal power struggle using the deaths of millions 75 years ago as a stick to beat someone with?

Asking for a friend who lost a lot of interest in the Labour Party several years ago. Which is presumably, exactly what at least one side in this fight was hoping for all along. 

Is there a date scheduled where Labour will stop punching its own gonads and start talking to the outside world with a view to getting some opposition votes on the board against one of the worst governments ever?

[HanoiVillan]

11 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Are there actually that many Labour Party members calling for a second holocaust, or is this just some weird internal power struggle using the deaths of millions 75 years ago as a stick to beat someone with?

Asking for a friend who lost a lot of interest in the Labour Party several years ago. Which is presumably, exactly what at least one side in this fight was hoping for all along. 

Is there a date scheduled where Labour will stop punching its own gonads and start talking to the outside world with a view to getting some opposition votes on the board against one of the worst governments ever?

Oliver Kamm is not a participant in Labour's civil war, he's ones of the guys who writes leaders for the Times.

[Jareth]

7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Is there a date scheduled where Labour will stop punching its own gonads 

Somebody somewhere in Labour's blairite wing must have calculated that by sabotaging the party through antisemitism slurs and various other underhand shenanigans (Forde report anyone?) that there would need to be a period later to detoxify that self made stench - or did they just shit on the floor first and worry about clearing it up later? looks that way. Sharon Graham recently and carefully said she expects Labour to be out of power for a decade, hers looks to be a good analysis. 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

Sharon Graham recently and carefully said she expects Labour to be out of power for a decade, hers looks to be a good analysis. 

Labour won't get into power again unless it actually splits. Its gone beyond repairable. Both sides need to be adults about it and face facts (absolutely guaranteed not to happen). The longer the brand war continues the worse it will be.

[darrenm]

30 minutes ago, bickster said:

Labour won't get into power again unless it actually splits. Its gone beyond repairable. Both sides need to be adults about it and face facts (absolutely guaranteed not to happen). The longer the brand war continues the worse it will be.

If the left side wanted some actual clout they should take over the Green Party. 50 Green MPs and ~20% vote share would force Labour to enter into an electoral reform pact for the next election.

[chrisp65]

I believe Kier is already on record saying no pacts, coalitions, informal agreements. He wants you to vote Labour or GTFO, regardless of the realities of first past the post.

The same tactic employed in Vale of Glamorgan in 2019 and 2017, losing both times by less votes than the votes given to parties that had offered to withdraw.

 

 

 

[bickster]

4 hours ago, darrenm said:

If the left side wanted some actual clout they should take over the Green Party. 50 Green MPs and ~20% vote share would force Labour to enter into an electoral reform pact for the next election.

More Trotskyite entryism

[Davkaus]

4 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

I believe Kier is already on record saying no pacts, coalitions, informal agreements. He wants you to vote Labour or GTFO, regardless of the realities of first past the post.

The same tactic employed in Vale of Glamorgan in 2019 and 2017, losing both times by less votes than the votes given to parties that had offered to withdraw.

 

 

 

The bloke thinks he's campaigning 15 years ago when Labour was a credible single-party government, but I can see why it's a hard position to be in, the SNP boogieman has been used in at least the last 3 elections

5 hours ago, darrenm said:

If the left side wanted some actual clout they should take over the Green Party. 50 Green MPs and ~20% vote share would force Labour to enter into an electoral reform pact for the next election.

Yeah, there's no way to celebrate ending an internal party civil war like taking over another party and starting another party civil war.  I also wonder how many of those circa 50 MPs have any chance of retaining their seat when they're no longer wearing a red tie. I suspect the lessons of "Change UK" may dissuade a big chunk of them from jumping ship to either a new party, or an existing much smaller party, not a single one of the people who left Labour retained their seat.

[darrenm]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

More Trotskyite entryism

More?

44 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

 

Yeah, there's no way to celebrate ending an internal party civil war like taking over another party and starting another party civil war.  I also wonder how many of those circa 50 MPs have any chance of retaining their seat when they're no longer wearing a red tie. I suspect the lessons of "Change UK" may dissuade a big chunk of them from jumping ship to either a new party, or an existing much smaller party, not a single one of the people who left Labour retained their seat.

Labour left and Green are 2 cheeks of the same arse. There's almost nothing between the 2 groups policy wise because when Labour had the left in charge, they were greener than the Greens. The members and voters tend to swap between the parties. A lot of the socialists who went into Labour in 2015 came from Green. It's similar to Lib Dems and Tories with votes, values and members.

I agree that a good number of the socialist campaign group MPs wouldn't keep their seats if not under a Labour banner which is why I think it's a non starter so far.

[dAVe80]

Labour left and the Greens could co exist in a coalition, and would probably make a better broad church than they do with the Labour right, but from a personal point of view I'd never join the Green Party. I look terrible in a Berghaus walking jacket for one.  

[bickster]

1 hour ago, darrenm said:

More

Socialist Action ringing any bells?

[bickster]

1 hour ago, darrenm said:

Labour left and Green are 2 cheeks of the same arse.

Not really, one is far more socially liberal the other is much closer to socially authoritarian

[OutByEaster?]

37 minutes ago, bickster said:

Not really, one is far more socially liberal the other is much closer to socially authoritarian

Wouldn't that make socialism the arse and liberal and authoritarian the cheeks?

 

[OutByEaster?]

1 hour ago, dAVe80 said:

Labour left and the Greens could co exist in a coalition, and would probably make a better broad church than they do with the Labour right.

So who would the Labour right most easily fit into a coalition with?

 

[chrisp65]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

So who would the Labour right most easily fit into a coalition with?

 

Likud