itbrvilla Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 P.S. I've never experienced it here but have across Germany and France and thinks its 100x better than the dross Sky calls atmosphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottyav Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Sitting by a group of christian tits with kids used to do my crust in, when you showed passion and singing they all looked round and gave daggers, bring back standing as the atmosphere was ten times it is now and you can freely move if you dislke who your stood next to.The old Holte days rocked especially those 90's semi finals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Germany didn't experience 133 deaths owing to the movement of people on terracing in two separate incidents in the space of 4 years, so the pressure was not there to do anything. I get that, however ... I think that the pro-campaign is largely made up of people who are swept up with the romance of standing at top flight football matches, but who never actually experienced it (with all due respect) And as I see it, the 'anti' argument usually has a fair amount of people swept up by the emotional tug of the aforementioned disasters which does nothing to discuss the logistics of whether it would work or not; though Chindie's post is the first I've seen that goes a long way towards answering the reality of those questions and does so realistically and without putting too much stock in tragic events that can always happen even with the best planning in the world. If it doesn't happen (and it probably won't), I hope it's decided against for the right reasons. I am not particularly 'anti', more indifferent, but if I was asked to make a choice, as this poll is doing then, on balance, I am against. The disasters are long debated and disagreed upon elsewhere, but they brought an end to antiquated stadia and supporters being caged in. Again on balance, they made football grounds better places to be. Personally I feel no emotional attachment to either of the aforementioned incidents, except the natural sorrow for those whose loved ones didn't return home, and all of the people who lived through the harrowing experiences of both disasters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 The disasters are long debated and disagreed upon elsewhere, but they brought an end to antiquated stadia and supporters being caged in. Again on balance, they made football grounds better places to be. They made them safer , not better IMO. It genuinely saddens me that I'll probably never experience anything like the Tranmere game ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 One other point. Okay, the atmosphere in VP can be shit at times (often!), but it was like that when we had terracing as well. Only on the odd occasion would you experience a great atmosphere, which is also the case nowadays. So could it be that the atmosphere thing is a bit of a red herring as well? Or is it just that the ground is fuller nowadays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 The disasters are long debated and disagreed upon elsewhere, but they brought an end to antiquated stadia and supporters being caged in. Again on balance, they made football grounds better places to be. They made them safer , not better IMO. It genuinely saddens me that I'll probably never experience anything like the Tranmere game ever again. In terms of drama, combined with what was at stake, we haven't had such a fixture since, so difficult to tell. Certainly the atmosphere for Inter Milan, Atletico Madrid and some of the derbies have been up there with the best-all in an all seater VP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 The disasters are long debated and disagreed upon elsewhere, but they brought an end to antiquated stadia and supporters being caged in. Again on balance, they made football grounds better places to be. They made them safer , not better IMO. It genuinely saddens me that I'll probably never experience anything like the Tranmere game ever again. In terms of drama, combined with what was at stake, we haven't had such a fixture since, so difficult to tell. Certainly the atmosphere for Inter Milan, Atletico Madrid and some of the derbies have been up there with the best-all in an all seater VP! For atmosphere none of those beat Tranmere and I was at all of them . It was our first cup final since 82 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 23, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2011 Can't see much wrong with this really . I could easily see something like this in the Lower North Stand . Couldn't see it costing too much to convert, and you'd imagine it wouldn't take long either Thanks for posting this. I think this might help a point I made earlier re. the argument that clubs could fit more people standing in the same space than they would sitting, which I think may not be the case especially with modern H&S legislation. From the looks of this picture and what I know of VP seating... there appears to be a **** load more space here between rows than at VP, especially somewhere like the upper Holte. If that is the case (and it sure looks like it) I imagine that any safe standing solution would look similar here too, and to me I think that backs up my point that the capacity may not change much at all, meaning clubs would almost certainly lose out on match day takings, making the time required to recover the cost of the planning and sorting out of the conversion... all adds up. For me, the emotional side of this debate is the red herring that will used to sell to the consumer the denial of what some will want, simply because the real reason, money and business, doesn't play to the crowd too well. At the end of the day if they could justify charging more for a standing seat, there'd be a clamour to get safe standing in from a lot of big names. As it is, they can't, so they don't care, which means theres no will from a major actor for it to happen, which means it will not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morley_crosses_to_Withe Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I'd pay the same price for a standing space as I would for a seat. In the standing area, I'd expect there to be better atmosphere. In the seating area, I'd expect there to be less atmosphere, but I'd get a plastic seat to sit on. There's a trade off - atmosphere vs plastic - and because of that, I'd pay the same. I could actually imagine one of the London clubs being first to adopt this. The fans of Arsenal, Spurs & Chelse pay extortionate amounts for tickets anyway so I can't imagine they'd give a **** if it meant they'd have to pay the same for standing as they would for a flimsy, uncomfortable bit of flappy plastic (I might even ask the question to all the London team supporters tomorrow at work; given that it's in London and I'm surrounded by them). I guess it depends on the fan - how worried they are about saving their little legs for 90 minutes, and their own perception of cost vs benefit. When the whole/large parts of the Holte End has stood up for 90 minutes in the past, I wonder how many people wrote to the club to ask for a refund on part of their ticket because they couldn't get to use the seat provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 23, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2011 But those London clubs you mention - wheres the initiative for them to do it? They're already selling out more or less every game, with no standing areas. There's no impetus for them to take the cost hit on making safe standing areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddy Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I don't see how anyone can object to this. It's a choice. No-one's forcing anyone to stand. Having been to a games in Germany you can see how it can be done safely. It's a no brainer for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Do I want it to happen? Yes. Will it ever happen? No. Why the hell would the police risk it? At the moment they can monitor everybody in the crowd by CCTV, cameras are pointing at every seat and the people in those seats cant just disappear into the crowd. Back in the day somebody could run onto the pitch and if they made it into the crowd on the other side then they had escaped. I saw it several times at Villa Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I'd happily pay a premium to be able to stand and mingle between different mates depending on what crap has just popped into my head that needs saying. pay a premium! that should get the clubs interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincsVilla Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Do I want it to happen? Yes. Will it ever happen? No. Why the hell would the police risk it? At the moment they can monitor everybody in the crowd by CCTV, cameras are pointing at every seat and the people in those seats cant just disappear into the crowd. Back in the day somebody could run onto the pitch and if they made it into the crowd on the other side then they had escaped. I saw it several times at Villa Park. Exactly what i was going to post. The police can keep an eye on everybody much easier. They can pick out the seat row and number, and then look at the clubs records for who's sat there. The police would have to work much harder to find that person without that information. I'd love standing to return to top-flight football regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Football is getting so sterile these days. It would be nice to have the choice between standing and sitting (like when wiping your arse). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Can't see this happening as long as the specter of Hillsborough looms over the debate. And there will be people who make sure it does....clubs are not going to be too interested in ripping up sections of stadiums to do it either, especially with some grounds holding other events besides football. Won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Can't see this happening as long as the specter of Hillsborough looms over the debate. And there will be people who make sure it does....clubs are not going to be too interested in ripping up sections of stadiums to do it either, especially with some grounds holding other events besides football. Won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsXI Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Out of 45 people only 2% are against I think thats pretty conclusive and would be the same around other clubs. Thing is a petition won't do anything we need to do more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theunderstudy Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 I go to Gloucester Rugby a fiar bit when I'm not at Villa. There is a length of the pitch stand called "The Shed" where the more fervent home supporters are. This is a standing area, and it is far better to stand for the game than sit down. Safe standing is a great idea, all you do at away games is stand anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fran_villa Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Out of 45 people only 2% are against I think thats pretty conclusive and would be the same around other clubs. Thing is a petition won't do anything we need to do more.Any Liverpool fans i haave talked to are against it. IMO its a great idea, for me standing in hill 16 in croker is quality on match days. i wonder would they do a cheaper standing season ticket as there would be more people in them areas of the stadium now?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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