villa4europe Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Premier League officials have vowed to resist calls for the reintroduction of standing areas at top-flight matches. The Football Supporters' Federation (FSF) is to launch an online petition asking for the return of standing areas in the top two divisions of English football. Terraces were banned following the Hillsborough disaster in 1989 but the Premier League insists that all-seater stadia are safe and better for fans. Premier League chief spokesman Dan Johnson said: "Our view is that the benefits of all-seater stadia far outweigh the return of standing areas. "They have led to more women and more children attending the games and no matter how safe standing can be made, seating is always safer. "We will not be encouraging the Government to change the law." The issue of allowing some standing areas has been revisited a number of times since all-seater stadiums became compulsory in 1994. FSF argument Kate Hoey tried to back a scheme when she was sports minister in 2001 but the-then Government blocked it. The FSF held a meeting on Monday with representatives from the police, Government and football authorities. FSF chairman Malcolm Clarke argues that many fans already stand all match despite having seats which is viewed as a safety risk. Clarke told The Guardian: "Fans do believe they have lost something in the move to all-seating. We will be doing further research to respond to the concerns of those who are not yet convinced." Sports minister Hugh Robertson plans to examine the evidence for safe standing but has played down any likelihood of a change to the law. Robertson told the meeting the first time that a significant accident or crowd trouble took place on a terrace there would be major repercussions. He said: "The minister's head would be on a spike on Tower Bridge before he could draft a resignation letter." this article sums it up for me, they'll hide behind the fact that its brought women and children to the game when it reality none of them want it because if it doesnt work someone will lose alot of money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 If patrolled properly it will work. Never see crowd trouble in Germany and tehm lads get cheaper tickets, more fans and buy beer on the terrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 23, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2011 The Germans have shown it works for donkeys years, I don't think that's going to change any stance we take. We ourselves showed it works for the majority of organised football spectation has happened. The Premier League doesn't want it, and the clubs will not want it either, so it won't happen. The cost to Prem teams will knock any notion on the head of doing it - they'd need to plough money into planning where these standing areas would be, and then the same again doing it. They'd be curtailing their profits by cutting down the cost per head of people coming in (as people will pay more for a seat than to stand) and the difference in numbers coming through the gate to maximum capacity is unlikely to make up the difference. It would also, the League and clubs would fear, cut down the potential market base - they've gained from the football becoming a more family orientated day, seeing more women and kids than ever. While we have family areas and would still, you're reducing the areas of the stadium, potentially, you could sell to a woman or to a child, or a family, in their view. And it's very unlikely that any minister will have the balls to support this seriously through the system to legislation, because they'd be terrified that any accident that may have been compounded or caused by safe standing (no matter how unlikely that is) is going to see the finger pointed firmly at them for letting it happen again, a point the Sports Minister himself has made quite clear. And the police will grumble because it'll make their job harder, even if simply because it'll be more people to police in a small area, amongst other complaints. It just won't happen. It's sad, as we should have the choice and of course it's rather silly to suggest English people can't stand up safely while ruthless German efficiency means their standing is safe, but it will not happen. In the extremely unlikely event that legislation for safe standing is passed, most clubs will simply ignore it imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 23, 2011 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2011 I don't understand the money fears. Firstly it's not the entire stadium which means women and kids will still have plenty of room. Plus this will likely only appeal to blokes who don't bring the family. Then there's the fact that per square metre you'll get more people standing than sitting, so the capacity goes up while giving everyone what they want and probably making it a better atmosphere too - because you'd also imagine that the standers will be a more hardcore noisier group who would get the place going. All in all, apart from the cost of redeveloping the relevant area of the ground, I can't see a legitimate reason not to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 23, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2011 I don't think clubs really give a shit about the atmosphere, they only care about the money coming in. And I'm not sure in todays times that we're going to see drastically more people standing compared to seating - legislation won't let clubs cram people in and, in my own experience of the Holte end, it's already pretty tightly packed. Even taking the seats out you're not going to get exponentially more people in. You'll get a few more, but not say, double imo, and I'm not sure that the reduced ticket for a standing area is going to be made up for by the number of people in. On the women and family note, any club today will look at an all seater stadium and will think that anyone can sit anywhere - a bloke could take his family to the Holte End just as much as he could the Trinity or one of the family areas. I wouldn't personally take a young kid into the Holte but I've seen people do it. They would, however, not think the same of a standing area (as you yourself say, it'd appeal to the blokes). For the club, that's cutting a potential market. They'll worry about the image too. A standing area has a more hostile look to it in the full swing of a game. As fans, we like that. For a number of people who view the football as a day out rather than as a full on supporter, they're going to dislike that and perceive it with loutishness, holliganism, whatever - however wrong that is they will. And clubs simply want to appeal to the widest audience on the right points of the cost bell curve. So, all seater stadiums where a decent price can be charged across the board and there is widest perceived appeal for filling out the stadium is what they will gun for. Any time clubs do segregate areas of potential seating for other means, it is always where they can charge more for that space, than less imo. The segregated area of the Trinity for example. And to a lesser extent boxes (although that also partly comes down to the potential market of businesses wanting to hire boxes long term bringing in a guarenteed income etc etc). It's a sad state of affairs, but thats football today. We're all customers and walking wallets. Couple that to the redevelopment costs and all the other factors and factions that will be against this and it will not occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 23, 2011 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2011 That all makes sense too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 23, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2011 I reckon the only time this would ever work would be if a couple of clubs, preferably the big boys, got behind it and put pressure on the Premier League. Don't see it happening though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 IMO a big club will be the last to do it take Utd for example, they have the marketing nailed, why would they want 10 blokes turning up and spending £100 on beer which probably doesnt have a great margin on it when they can have a family of 4 turn up and spend £100 in the club shop the fact that those blokes turn up every week whereas the family probably never return might bother the smaller clubs but for utd its not a problem i know its not the prem but the sense of that i got at the nou camp was mad, the whole event feels like it caters for people like me, one offs who spend a fortune there, rather than go every week know a better place for drinks and cheaper place for shirts type fans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I'm the no. I grew up standing and loved it, but it has gone. 'Safe' standing will mean strictly adhered to numbers, and all the best standing was decidedly unsafe. Who can forget how the 'noses used to have a power cut when the Tilton was three-quarters full with Vila fans and then start again from scratch, thus filling the stand to incredibly dangerous levels? In terms of managing crowds, eradicating racist/sexist/homophobic chanting etc, all seaters are much more efficient. As far as I can see, much of the support for standing comes from people who never experienced it, so they are not actually missing anything. Standing has gone, football has moved on, maybe not for the better but a return to standing would not improve it in any way. Just my opinion of course. If I was in the Upper Holte I would have been shouted down well before now :winkold: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 23, 2011 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2011 So why does it still work in Germany and why has Germany not moved on thetrees? I am one who didn't experience it, but I can see the appeal and I also understand why you think it might fail if re-tried in this new modern era but while we can still point at the Bundesliga as a shining light I don't think it can be dismissed. And before people say the Bundesliga is rife with racism/neo-nazi nationalists/non-family friendly atmospheres etc yes there's an element of that in certain stadia but not everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 23, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2011 IMO a big club will be the last to do it take Utd for example, they have the marketing nailed, why would they want 10 blokes turning up and spending £100 on beer which probably doesnt have a great margin on it when they can have a family of 4 turn up and spend £100 in the club shop the fact that those blokes turn up every week whereas the family probably never return might bother the smaller clubs but for utd its not a problem Exactly why i don't think it will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 So why does it still work in Germany and why has Germany not moved on thetrees? I am one who didn't experience it, but I can see the appeal and I also understand why you think it might fail if re-tried in this new modern era but while we can still point at the Bundesliga as a shining light I don't think it can be dismissed. And before people say the Bundesliga is rife with racism/neo-nazi nationalists/non-family friendly atmospheres etc yes there's an element of that in certain stadia but not everywhere. Germany didn't experience 133 deaths owing to the movement of people on terracing in two separate incidents in the space of 4 years, so the pressure was not there to do anything. I just don't think that it will improve anything, and I think that the pro-campaign is largely made up of people who are swept up with the romance of standing at top flight football matches, but who never actually experienced it (with all due respect) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 23, 2011 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2011 Germany didn't experience 133 deaths owing to the movement of people on terracing in two separate incidents in the space of 4 years, so the pressure was not there to do anything. I get that, however ... I think that the pro-campaign is largely made up of people who are swept up with the romance of standing at top flight football matches, but who never actually experienced it (with all due respect) And as I see it, the 'anti' argument usually has a fair amount of people swept up by the emotional tug of the aforementioned disasters which does nothing to discuss the logistics of whether it would work or not; though Chindie's post is the first I've seen that goes a long way towards answering the reality of those questions and does so realistically and without putting too much stock in tragic events that can always happen even with the best planning in the world. If it doesn't happen (and it probably won't), I hope it's decided against for the right reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedge Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Was actually about to post this on here! I've signed the petition and in doing so joined the FSF, the Premier League are shitting themselves in case the government take any notice of the petition, coming out with some bollocks that "seating attracts more women and children to matches", well you only need to look as far as Germany to see how it can work successfully and plenty of women and children attend German top-flight matches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 23, 2011 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2011 Was actually about to post this on here! I've signed the petition and in doing so joined the FSF, the Premier League are shitting themselves in case the government take any notice of the petition, coming out with some bollocks that "seating attracts more women and children to matches", well you only need to look as far as Germany to see how it can work successfully and plenty of women and children attend German top-flight matches! The Dutch league attracts and welcomes plenty of families & kids to their standing areas too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsXI Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 It's a farce that it's not allowed here, the women and children argument that you hear is crazy, it's not the whole stadium would be turned into one big safe standing area. I really doubt Sky and the big clubs would want purely because it doesn't sit in their vision of English football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Standing areas didn't kill 133 people, poor regulation did. Of course all seaters could have prevented those deaths, but so could other measures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Can't see much wrong with this really . I could easily see something like this in the Lower North Stand . Couldn't see it costing too much to convert, and you'd imagine it wouldn't take long either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrinityRoadSteps Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Terraces no more killed people at Hillsborough than seats killed people at Bradford. A red herring IMHO As someone who goes to see German Football at least twice a season I am firmly in the bring back standing camp, and yes I am old enough to have stood at football. Most German clubs have membership schemes that you have to join before you can buy tickets for the standing areas and I don't see why this cannot be the case here. The atmosphere is fantastic at German stadia, much better than here. And to me part of the attraction of football is the atmosphere at games. We know the clubs won't go for it. If it was up to them attending football would be like attending the theatre. It's all about money these days and clubs won't do anything that will upset their revenue streams. It's a shame because I believe football would benefit from standing areas at grounds (especially if it came with cheaper tickets so some of the people who have been priced out of attending come back) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itbrvilla Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 So why does it still work in Germany and why has Germany not moved on thetrees? I am one who didn't experience it, but I can see the appeal and I also understand why you think it might fail if re-tried in this new modern era but while we can still point at the Bundesliga as a shining light I don't think it can be dismissed. And before people say the Bundesliga is rife with racism/neo-nazi nationalists/non-family friendly atmospheres etc yes there's an element of that in certain stadia but not everywhere. Germany didn't experience 133 deaths owing to the movement of people on terracing in two separate incidents in the space of 4 years, so the pressure was not there to do anything. I just don't think that it will improve anything, and I think that the pro-campaign is largely made up of people who are swept up with the romance of standing at top flight football matches, but who never actually experienced it (with all due respect) Does the Taylor report state that standing was to blame for Hillsborough? I though crowd control and overcrowding were the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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