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The return of Safe Standing Issue


ianrobo1

Do you believe in safe standing  

22 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you believe in safe standing

    • Yes
      18
    • No
      4


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The only way it would happen would be if the law was passed that it was allowed, and then as Premier League ground were rennovated or replaced anyway, for example, pompey moving to their new ground, they then include these standing areas in their new grounds/stands.

I really can't see any premier league gorund going out of their way to change their stands.

how about new builds

take us ...

lets say you tear down the North and replaced it with a replica of the Holte but with the lower - safe standing, so instead of 8k you could have say 5k extra, paying lower but these are extra capacity anyway ... top tier could then be corporate ...

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Disagree with point a. I'm sure 99% of people celebrate a goal by getting out of their seat, so they can be judged to be potential hazzards even then.

Point b. As some have already said, have Holte End standing, and the rest sitting or something, or just sections.

do you think the seating as shown by AG is safer than current seating?

I really don't know, I can't say it's safer until it's been tested or anything. It's almost irrelevant though as people who want to sit still won't be able to see..

@Jon. The only injuries I've ever gotten celebrating a goal are actually from my own seat! So many times I've jumped up to celebrate and ripped the skin of my ankle or leg in doing so!

same with me seats are dangerous when you score and had a few

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The only way it would happen would be if the law was passed that it was allowed, and then as Premier League ground were rennovated or replaced anyway, for example, pompey moving to their new ground, they then include these standing areas in their new grounds/stands.

I really can't see any premier league gorund going out of their way to change their stands.

how about new builds

take us ...

lets say you tear down the North and replaced it with a replica of the Holte but with the lower - safe standing, so instead of 8k you could have say 5k extra, paying lower but these are extra capacity anyway ... top tier could then be corporate ...

That's exaclty what I mean. The law would be passed that it was allowed, then we come to do up our stand we would then consider the terracing. In that situation terracing would probably be favourable as I imagine if the whole stand was being rebuilt, it would be cheaper to build terracing.

However, I wouldn't imagine any club would rebuild a stand JUST to have the new terracing.

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Yeh but are Everton and Fulham regularly selling out? Do they need the extra capacity. And if they got it would they make enough to justify the cost of rebuilding? I'm not so sure it would be worth their while.

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Yes tickets would be cheapr, but if clubs spent millions on converting to terrsacing, would they want to drop prices?

I dispute that tickets would get cheaper.

The fact is that the current price environment (allowing for the state of the economy) has demonstrated that supporters are willing to pay the outlandish prices.

And it seems to be the consensus among standing advocates that terracing gives a better gameday experience so people would presumably be willing to pay more to stand than to sit.

None of that indicates that terrace tickets would be cheaper than tickets are now.

The only way I can think of that terracing might feature lower prices is if it improves the atmosphere enough that the corporate types are willing to pay more for their tickets, in which case terrace tickets might get discounted to increase that effect.

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The kombi seating thing looks interesting, BUT....

A major part of the reason we all loved terraces has been mentioned here several times already - it's that "swaying mass of bodies" thing. Where the Villa score in front of the Holte and you get carried bodily down several rows of terrace, but end up further down than you started - which begs the question "Who's being squashed down at the bottom?"

In other words, it's the very thing that was dangerous that we enjoyed. The kombi seats (with barriers on EVERY row) wouldn't allow that, so nobody should expect them to bring back the atmosphere of "the good old days" - it would just be standing up in situ, no real movement.

If everybody understands that, then fine.

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probably not Ben but it does result in extra capacity so some may, for example I bet Fulham could easily be converted back ...

and Everton

The worst stand ever in the history of football or the away stand at everton if you will. Is terraced with a few wooden seats bolted in with metal spikes to bludgeon your shins when you score. It would be a million times safer as standing as everyone stands anyway.

Standing happens at every game in the premier league every week. Although it is funny falling over the seats infront of you when you score, there must be a better way. Shocked that it isnt being seriously considered to be honest.

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I don't believe there would be a big take-up for standing if it was more expensive than seats. That would completely defeat the purpose.

Part of the original appeal was that it was a cheaper, more 'basic' way to house supporters and this lead in turn to the atmopshere/ industial language.

Cannot see it ever returning for the reasons outlined previously (much as I'd like it to).

Don't think cost would be an issue. How much would it be to remove the seats from the lower Holte for example, and install crush barriers or the bench style partitions on display in German grounds.

The investment in CCTV and a fear of a potential increase in crowd-related disturbances would be the main obstacles. Who would want to carry the can for effectively authorizing/encouraging the latter? I don't think it's a given that trouble would follow automatically, particularly not at VP. But any incidents at other grounds would be seized upon by all the usual suspects and held up as a glowing example of declining standards/ an out of touch Labour party et.c.

In short- outside of delighted football fans obv - too many would have potentially too much to lose.

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Thing is Jon, standing "at moments of excitement" IS permitted, and you're right - this is the least safe time, for the reasons you gave.

What's bonkers is that standing is not permitted when now'ts happening.

I accept the "people behind can't see if they are sitting point completely. AT Stoke this season for example my seat was right in front of the disabled section. So if I stood up the lady behind couldn't see from her wheelchair. The only problem was that everyone in front of me was stood up, so I couldn't see. Normally I'd have been happy to stand up myself, but with this lady behind, I spent the whole game in a sort of semi stood/semi sat contortion, trying not to block her view, whilst trying to see through gaps in front of me. Getting people in front of me to sit down proved utterly futile.

Ideally the Disabled section would have been a bit higher elevated, but it isn't.

People will not sit down. They just won't, and really I don't blame them. Like I said on page 1 of this thread, I used to be against bringing back standing areas, but for me it's the only sensible way to proceed.

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People may be paying current prices and mostly filling grounds, but frankly there's a lot of resentment about prices (and player's wages etc). If standing was brought in to enable prices to be dropped it would bring as much goodwill as would the facility to stand up, for those who wanted to.

In hard economic times goodwill from "customers" is vital - without it, you're going to lose a lot of "trade".

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  • 3 months later...

An article on why Americans generally prefer to sit while others generally prefer standing

In the U.S., go to almost any professional sporting event and look in the stands -- just about everyone sits. But at soccer matches throughout the world, many fans prefer to stand.

The tradition of standing is so entrenched that games like Tuesday's UEFA Champions League semifinal at London's Emirates stadium often elicit battles between ticket-holders who want to stay on their feet and security guards who want them to relax a little.

In fact until the 1990s, stadiums in England included large standing terraces where spectators were treated like cattle. In America, however, custom and shouting have always kept people down in front at big-time baseball or basketball games.

"I don't see myself going to watch a game and sitting down," says Oscar Zambrana, a Bolivian-American in Virginia who runs the D.C. United supporters' group, La Barra Brava. "To me sitting down is kind of boring."

To explain the gulf in fan behavior, historians point to everything from labor laws to gender roles to cultural expectations.

It goes back to "the middle ages, when the nobility sat and the common plebs stood," says Rod Sheard, senior principle of the leading sports architecture firm Populous [formerly HOK Sport, and, IIRC, the folks whom Randy has hired to oversee changes to VP --LR] and designer of the Emirates. "All of America is nobility. Everyone thinks they're king in America."

Indeed, 19th-century baseball fans in the U.S. quickly developed higher standards for comfort than British soccer fans, says Steven Riess, author of "Sport in Industrial America, 1850-1920." "I think there was a sense of entitlement for American leisure clients that they didn't have in Europe."

Baseball owners, in the American entrepreneurial tradition, helped create these expectations, by aiming at the tea-and-crumpets crowd, not the "rowdies." William Cammeyer, the man who is often cited as the first person to sell tickets to a baseball game, saw the civilizing and profitable effects of seating.

"A long wooden shed has been erected," the Brooklyn Eagle reported when Mr. Cammeyer opened his Union Grounds in 1862, "and benches provided for the fair sex." Women were the harbingers of respectability and higher ticket prices. "Wherever their presence enlivens the scene," the newspaper opined, "there, gentlemanly conduct will follow."

Quite a few people still stood at these early games, sometimes in the outfield. In St. Louis there was a beer garden in right field where players would have to retrieve the ball among the idle drinkers (the garden was in play). But as baseball's popularity grew, the owners were intent on providing more and better seats. When Albert Spalding rebuilt Chicago's Lakefront Park in 1883, he added plush luxury boxes with armchairs and curtains to shield kingly spectators from the sun and wind.

"Spalding was one of the folks who was pivotal in making baseball more like high-end entertainment," says Robert Trumpbour, author of "The New Cathedrals: Politics and Media in the History of Stadium Construction." "He tried to push the prices upward. He would argue that baseball players are every bit as entertaining as a Broadway show, and people pay a premium for that."

British soccer developed very differently. The clubs, some of which were started by workers from the Thames Ironworks (West Ham United) and the Woolwich Arsenal (Royal Arsenal), were usually partnerships controlled by local directors, not entrepreneurial owners, and the games were held on Saturday afternoons when laborers were given a half-day off.

The early stadiums were designed to pack in as many fans as possible and were far from luxurious. Many of them were designed by one man, Archibald Leitch, a Scottish architect who cut his teeth building factories. Mr. Leitch's Stamford Bridge, the site of Wednesday's Champions League semifinal, had only 500 seats when it opened for soccer in 1905, but it had room for 90,000 standing. (It maintained standing sections until 1994.)

"The working class in the 19th century and 20th century," says Gary Armstrong, who studies sports sociology at Brunel University in London, "didn't have a great deal of expectations about public facilities. They'd go from working in a coal mine or a factory to standing up often in an inch of mud in the winter."

In Britain, shoddy conditions soon became integral to the fan experience. Fans flocked to the big matches partly for the pleasure of being uncomfortable together. At the 1923 FA Cup final, some 200,000 spectators packed into the new Wembley Stadium, which had seats for about 35,000.

"It became exciting to be standing amongst people and to be part of that huge humanity," says Mr. Sheard, who designed today's Wembley with 90,000 seats and no standing room. "You're almost swept away into a different world for that hour and a half.... You're part of this huge sweep of humanity that's chanting and yelling and singing."

For the most part, spectators at NBA or NFL games plant their fannies and chow down on hot dogs. Now soccer fans are beginning to follow suit. After a series of disasters in standing terraces in the 1980s, many top European leagues, including the English Premier League and the UEFA Champions League, outlawed standing-room sections. Clubs have also enforced new rules to keep people in their seats. British fans haven't taken it lying down, though. Protest groups have formed, including "Stand Up Sit Down," which would like to re-introduce "safe terracing" in Britain. A 2007 survey by the Football Fans' Census showed 92% of 2,046 English fans supported their effort.

In other countries, stadiums with standing sections are still common. In Germany some new high-tech venues, like the Allianz Arena in Munich, have incorporated standing terraces that can be converted to seating for UEFA Champions League games.

Safety may not be the main issue. "Standing terraces can be designed to be just as safe as seating," says Mr. Sheard. "There's just not the incentive to do it." Seat assignments allow for more accurate surveillance and crowd control, and they fit in with the newer, more corporate stadiums.

Plus, it's harder to see the game when you're standing in the middle of a crowd of sweaty fanatics singing, "Who ate all the pies?" Not that it matters much to some soccer fans.

"I don't particularly watch the games," said Mr. Zambrana. "I always have my back to the field, leading the chants...."I can watch the game when I get home."

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  • 1 year later...

Got this from FB, though I expect an email will arrive soon from FSF too. The issue around safe stand is being discussed again and is something that I think we should look at.

The Football Supporters’ Federation (FSF) believes that football supporters should have the choice to watch football from a safe standing area, if they so wish, at matches in England and Wales.

If you agree, sign the FSF's petition today.

Here

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Total no-brainer. Of course we should have safe standing. We need to stop letting emotive issues get in the way of common sense. Look at the rest of Europe and see that it does work.

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