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The Libertarian Thread


norwegianvillain

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On all those political quadrant thingies, I always come out as Left Libertarian.

i.e. in favour of state control in matters of the economy, utilities, etc., but minimal state interference in matters of lifestyle, sexuality, etc.

Rightwing libertarians would be the diametric opposite.

Neither of those can really be called libertarian.

Edited by Mantis
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Yes, I'm a libertarian.

 

If the old or disabled or children or the 'unlucky' can't stand on their own two feet, **** 'em.

That's isn't libertarian.

That's, at best, the caricature of a right wing libertarian (I'm not sure that it appropriately represents them, tbh).

 

 

Are you saying that your view of Libertarianism is more correct than mine and that under libertarianism I have responsibilities to others I don't know and have never met and need to contribute to their well being? How will I do this? Perhaps via centrally organised tax? Or an enforceable duty to work for others?

 

How many of these other less fortunate people do I have a duty of care to? All of them? Or just those up to a certain distance away? We could nominate distances and call them borders and everyone within that border I have a duty of care to. But how would we stop people crossing that border? Border guards! Now, how do we pay them? 

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Are you saying that your view of Libertarianism is more correct than mine...

I'm too hungover to respond to your post in the detail it deserves, Chris.

What I will say is that 'libertarian' is an adjective that has become, mistakenly, associated solely with the kind of (right wing) individualism as per your comment above.

It's not just Ron Paul and P J O'Rourke.

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As the great political commentator, Chris Rock, once said - I've got some shit that I am conservative about and I've got some shit I'm liberal about.  Crime, I'm conservative.  Prostitution I'm liberal.

 

 

 

*disclaimer: the above does not constitute my views on prostitution.

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Don't we all just want the same thing (outside of a few strays at the edges)? But we're hampered by our crowd mentality that promotes the wrong type of people to control us.

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Don't we all just want the same thing (outside of a few strays at the edges)? But we're hampered by our crowd mentality that promotes the wrong type of people to control us.

 

Hayek wrote a very good chapter on this topic in his book The Road to Serfdom, where he basically explains how it is that the wrong people are (almost) always elected.

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Don't we all just want the same thing (outside of a few strays at the edges)? But we're hampered by our crowd mentality that promotes the wrong type of people to control us.

Hayek wrote a very good chapter on this topic in his book The Road to Serfdom, where he basically explains how it is that the wrong people are (almost) always elected.

Wanting power should be the biggest disqualified for power.

I more or less identify as a bleeding-heart libertarian (i.e. one who believes that individual action (with free markets being the most important manifestation thereof) are far more likely to lead to social justice and the eradication of privilege than state action).

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I'm very much a liberal, but I'm also a bit of a socialist. I'm guessing that by libertarian you mean the Ayn Rand-fetishizing brand, and forgive me when I say I find that particular ideology a little bit ridiculous.

Edited by Michelsen
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Don't we all just want the same thing (outside of a few strays at the edges)? But we're hampered by our crowd mentality that promotes the wrong type of people to control us.

Hayek wrote a very good chapter on this topic in his book The Road to Serfdom, where he basically explains how it is that the wrong people are (almost) always elected.

Wanting power should be the biggest disqualified for power.

I more or less identify as a bleeding-heart libertarian (i.e. one who believes that individual action (with free markets being the most important manifestation thereof) are far more likely to lead to social justice and the eradication of privilege than state action).

 

 

I can't escape the feeling that whatever we do to try and control anything is futile and everything eventually works to the same conclusion. The only variable is how much effort we waste trying to control it.

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I more or less identify as a bleeding-heart libertarian (i.e. one who believes that individual action (with free markets being the most important manifestation thereof) are far more likely to lead to social justice and the eradication of privilege than state action).

 

 

I could embrace such an ideology ... as long as everyone gets to start in the same place. 

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I'm very much a liberal, but I'm also a bit of a socialist. I'm guessing that by libertarian you mean the Ayn Rand-fetishizing brand, and forgive me when I say I find that particular ideology a little bit ridiculous.

 

In an economic perspective i would say libertarianism ranges from the Friedmanite Chicago school which argues for the state to a certain degree, to Murray Rothbard and anarchy. There are significant differences within the broad term libertarianism. I'm for a limited government, who's only task should be to protect the rights of its citizens.

Edited by norwegianvillain
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I more or less identify as a bleeding-heart libertarian (i.e. one who believes that individual action (with free markets being the most important manifestation thereof) are far more likely to lead to social justice and the eradication of privilege than state action). 

  •  
 

It's beautiful in theory, but all we have to do is look at the banking and investment sector to see that unregulated industry leads directly to the opposite outcome you posit. Without government "interference" in the free market, 12 year olds would still be in the coal mines. The trick is striking a equitable balance, which is always a struggle at best. But giving the key to the castle to a bunch of fat cats and expecting them to be the arbiters of social justice is pure fantasy. Of course, now that those same fat cats hold high level government positions, it's all but a moot point. 

Edited by maqroll
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I more or less identify as a bleeding-heart libertarian (i.e. one who believes that individual action (with free markets being the most important manifestation thereof) are far more likely to lead to social justice and the eradication of privilege than state action). 

  •  
 

It's beautiful in theory, but all we have to do is look at the banking and investment sector to see that unregulated industry leads directly to the opposite outcome you posit. Without government "interference" in the free market, 12 year olds would still be in the coal mines. The trick is striking a equitable balance, which is always a struggle at best. But giving the key to the castle to a bunch of fat cats and expecting them to be the arbiters of social justice is pure fantasy. Of course, now that those same fat cats hold high level government positions, it's all but a moot point. 

 

 

No no no no no 

 

The Fed is to blame for the credit crash. Artificially cheap fiat money and bailouts. The finance sector in America today is far from capitalist. Capitalism is about profits and loss, bailouts go against every principle of capitalism. Governments are digging their own graves with the current hair-of-the-dog economics, and they are sadly being applauded for it. Look to Greece.

 

Capitalism ended child labour. Capitalism enabled people to take their children out of work thanks to an extreme economic growth.

Edited by norwegianvillain
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Capitalism ended child labour. Capitalism enabled people to take their children out of work thanks to an extreme economic growth.

 

 

 

so....

 

but....

 

yeah ok, whatever

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I more or less identify as a bleeding-heart libertarian (i.e. one who believes that individual action (with free markets being the most important manifestation thereof) are far more likely to lead to social justice and the eradication of privilege than state action). 

  •  
 

It's beautiful in theory, but all we have to do is look at the banking and investment sector to see that unregulated industry leads directly to the opposite outcome you posit. Without government "interference" in the free market, 12 year olds would still be in the coal mines. The trick is striking a equitable balance, which is always a struggle at best. But giving the key to the castle to a bunch of fat cats and expecting them to be the arbiters of social justice is pure fantasy. Of course, now that those same fat cats hold high level government positions, it's all but a moot point. 

 

 

No no no no no 

 

The Fed is to blame for the credit crash. Artificially cheap fiat money and bailouts. The finance sector in America today is far from capitalist. Capitalism is about profits and loss, bailouts go against every principle of capitalism. Governments are digging their own graves with the current hair-of-the-dog economics, and they are sadly being applauded for it. Look to Greece.

 

Capitalism ended child labour. Capitalism enabled people to take their children out of work thanks to an extreme economic growth.

 

 

I don't think you could possibly say anything more factually inaccurate. 

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I more or less identify as a bleeding-heart libertarian (i.e. one who believes that individual action (with free markets being the most important manifestation thereof) are far more likely to lead to social justice and the eradication of privilege than state action). 

  •  
 

It's beautiful in theory, but all we have to do is look at the banking and investment sector to see that unregulated industry leads directly to the opposite outcome you posit. Without government "interference" in the free market, 12 year olds would still be in the coal mines. The trick is striking a equitable balance, which is always a struggle at best. But giving the key to the castle to a bunch of fat cats and expecting them to be the arbiters of social justice is pure fantasy. Of course, now that those same fat cats hold high level government positions, it's all but a moot point. 

 

 

No no no no no 

 

The Fed is to blame for the credit crash. Artificially cheap fiat money and bailouts. The finance sector in America today is far from capitalist. Capitalism is about profits and loss, bailouts go against every principle of capitalism. Governments are digging their own graves with the current hair-of-the-dog economics, and they are sadly being applauded for it. Look to Greece.

 

Capitalism ended child labour. Capitalism enabled people to take their children out of work thanks to an extreme economic growth.

 

 

I don't think you could possibly say anything more factually inaccurate. 

 

 

care to elaborate on that?

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I more or less identify as a bleeding-heart libertarian (i.e. one who believes that individual action (with free markets being the most important manifestation thereof) are far more likely to lead to social justice and the eradication of privilege than state action). 

  •  
 

It's beautiful in theory, but all we have to do is look at the banking and investment sector to see that unregulated industry leads directly to the opposite outcome you posit. Without government "interference" in the free market, 12 year olds would still be in the coal mines. The trick is striking a equitable balance, which is always a struggle at best. But giving the key to the castle to a bunch of fat cats and expecting them to be the arbiters of social justice is pure fantasy. Of course, now that those same fat cats hold high level government positions, it's all but a moot point. 

 

 

No no no no no 

 

The Fed is to blame for the credit crash. Artificially cheap fiat money and bailouts. The finance sector in America today is far from capitalist. Capitalism is about profits and loss, bailouts go against every principle of capitalism. Governments are digging their own graves with the current hair-of-the-dog economics, and they are sadly being applauded for it. Look to Greece.

 

Capitalism ended child labour. Capitalism enabled people to take their children out of work thanks to an extreme economic growth.

 

 

I don't think you could possibly say anything more factually inaccurate. 

 

 

care to elaborate on that?

 

 

Made in China...

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