Our midfield problem

[TRO]

On 12/5/2016 at 14:08, guyavfc said:

I still find it ridiculous that we loaned out Veretout.

He's not the answer either.

[Dodgyknees]

On 04/12/2016 at 14:55, OutByEaster? said:

If you compare our midfield to our forward line, then our shortcomings become even clearer.

Kodjia, Grealish, Ayew, Gestede, Adomah, Agbonlahor, McCormack, Hepburn-Murphy, Kozak and Green all have squad numbers and are all players that can feature in our front line.

Bacuna, Westwood, Tshibola, Gardner, Jedinak, Lyden are the midfield equivalents.

Now there's a case to be made to say that Grealish could belong in either group, and I can understand that but even if you remove him, there are nine options in the front line and six in the midfield.

Bruce is right when he says we have too many strikers and I think we'll see Kozak leave in January - he's playing in all of our reserve games and is very much being put in the shop window. Without him, it's still eight up front and six in the middle.

Amongst the two groups there are players that aren't currently legitimate first team options - Hepburn-Murphy and Green from the front line and Lyden from the middle - so in terms of actual first team option that you could pick, we have six forwards and five midfielders. That's a little more balanced isn't it? 

Kodjia, Ayew, Adomah, Gestede, Agbonlahor, McCormack are the six forwards we're talking about.

Bacuna, Westwood, Tshibola, Gardner and Jedinak are the midfielders.

Quality-wise, those two groups are a mile apart. Our front line features some of the most dangerous strikers in this division - our midfield doesn't have a single player that promotion rivals would be desperate to get their hands on. Our front line would be the stars of just about any team in the championship - our midfield would be the bench of most of the clubs in this division.

Individually, (and here's where I suspect there'll be some disagreement) I think Westwood is the best of them (and that ought to be enough to tell you something) he can pass a ball, he's got some energy and he's got a good amount of experience. He's also got a big mistake in him, he struggles with confidence and he's not a player that can dominate physically or be a creative force.

Jedinak is 32, he's big, experienced, very good in the air and a reassuring presence - but he's really poor on the ball, he's not got great mobility and with age he struggles to influence games in any role other than as a back four protector. He's essentially becoming a centre back in midfield. Useful enough for now, especially given our limitations, but he's a very limited footballer.

Gardner is in the biggest season of his career - can he influence games and can he have an impact - he's not got great energy, he's not going to get from box to box and he's not a player that is going to use his running to change games. He's reasonable on the ball and at his best sitting in front of the back four with the game in front of him - it's notable that since Jedinak arrived, Gardner has struggled - Jedinak performs the role of limited midfielder better than he does - and when asked to perform a more expansive role, Gardner's limitations are exposed.

What for me is a real problem with this three is that ideally, they'd all want to do the same job - they'd all want to be the mop-up man, with two hard running midfielders in front of them - when only one can do that job, the others struggle to impact games.

Bacuna is a reasonable footballer, capable of being a decent right back and a passable central midfield player - the kind of player every team needs in their squad to rotate and keep players fit - a good bench option.

Tshibola remains the wild card - he's another who isn't a midfielder that dominates through energy, although he has a bit more mobility than most of our group - he's strong and he's got some enthusiasm along with some ability on the ball, but he's raw and he looks to me like he occasionally needs a kick up the arse to keep him moving. I have a feeling that until he can show he wants to play for the reserves he's not going to get many opportunities to play for the first team. I"m also not sure that he's ultimately what the first team really needs at the moment in terms of style.

Five midfield options - not one of them is a running midfielder; a Cleverley or a Gaye or a Boateng even - and none of them are particularly creative either - in fact, between them, their lack of mobility means that they're not good at keeping possession even - either because they're poor at passing the ball or because they aren't mobile enough to get into positions to receive it.

Our goals tally is severely hampered by our inability to play through the middle, to have midfielders support the forwards, to have the ball played through the middle and create chances from around the box - our goals are long balls and individual moments of genius - which is nice - but a bit more cake to go with that icing will be required.

In terms of our front line, in order to have a squad that is capable and likely to be promoted, I don't think we'd need to do a thing.

In terms of our midfield, in order to have a squad that is capable and likely to be promoted, I think we need three players. I think we need legs, I think we need running, I think we need zest and zip and all those other nice words that express energy and creativity and control. I think we have to buy that in. It simply isn't there in the current group.

There are areas elsewhere that can be strengthened, but nothing close to the need we have in the middle of the park in my opinion.

 

 

 

Outstanding post. Sums the situation up perfectly. 

[Grasshopper]

Our problems begin with the simple lack of quality throughout the midfield

Jedi & Bacuna would be very functional players alongside better than average players

So with the benchmark raised they would fit in

However, as the benchmark, the overall quality is not good enough, thus, when our "system" works for the players we can get away with it. But the players as a unit (maybe even a c-unit - play on words) arent good enough to work a "system"

[One For The Road]

What I'd do for a midfield of Jean Makoun II and Mark Kinsella.... Ah well.

[The Fun Factory]

Excellent post by Out by Easter. Agree with pretty much all of that. I would be willing to give Tish a go in the side but so far it looks like Bruce does not rate him. He is raw but I was impressed by some of his play when he has started. As well as the centre mid being a problem area I would also say generally the side lacks width. We have not really a proper winger- even Grealish tends to drift in. We have all this decent strikeforce but not one to put a decent cross or set piece in.

It is going over now very old ground but we have never replaced Milner's box to box dynamism and Young pin ball crossing since they both moved on to bigger and better things.

Sigh.

[sne]

I'd be more than happy to make a 180 with our midfielders in January.

Send Gardner and Westwood out on loan, and bring Gil, Veretout and Sanchez back from loan.

Can't and won't get any worse.

Edited December 14, 2016 by sne

[vreitti]

On 12/4/2016 at 16:55, OutByEaster? said:

If you compare our midfield to our forward line, then our shortcomings become even clearer.

Kodjia, Grealish, Ayew, Gestede, Adomah, Agbonlahor, McCormack, Hepburn-Murphy, Kozak and Green all have squad numbers and are all players that can feature in our front line.

Bacuna, Westwood, Tshibola, Gardner, Jedinak, Lyden are the midfield equivalents.

I was thinking about this myself last weekend when watching some PL footy. Most 'modern' top teams operate with very few forwards nowadays, and instead have a wealth of options in midfield. 

Just look at Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Pool, Citeh for instance, almost none have more than two actual strikers, and most only play one. All our forward players aren't of course downright strikers, but most are I think, and I really struggle to understand Kodjia's or Ayew's best position.

[Richard]

Where the **** is Tshibola.  I fail to accept either Gardner or Westwood are better than himI just do not see that.

I've seen people say two or three in midfield.  Sorry dont like either of them.

If we are talking formations then maybe 4-1-4-1  or 4-5-1 are the way to go with Jedinak in front of the back 4 then a four man midfield of Adomha on the right,  Tshibola and Grealish in the middle and a left winger which we need desperately,  why has Green not been tried there?

People like Agbonlahor,  Westwood,  Gardner are not the future.  Green and RHM are the future and they are much more worth a try than the other three losers shoe horned into a midfield formation that isnt working.

It isnt solid and wont be with two or three in there .  Needs to be four with some in the middle and some width.

[philgetaway]

Jedinak is currently our midfield.  Trying to do a job of many men.  

[gatecrasha]

With our options , we need a 4-5-1 formation

Kodjia being the 1 and swapped or added to in game with ayew/mccormack

Midfield 5 as part of a diamond formation should be

Jedi holding

Bacuna/ gardner / tish/ adomah- any permutation of 3 of these,  but think adomah has cemented his position as a starter

Grealish behind the main striker.

Then off the bench we have ayew, mccormack,gestede

Flabby needs a p45 cos he is sh1t

 

[Keyblade]

Like, I know you guys all hate Westwood but Gardner and Bacuna are comfortably worse than him and in Bacuna's case should be nowhere near a professional central midfield. It's one thing saying he's not good enough, fair enough...but the bottom of the pecking order? That's just pettiness. 

[hippo]

On 05/12/2016 at 14:08, guyavfc said:

I still find it ridiculous that we loaned out Veretout.

I find it ridiculous that we ever brought him

[darrenm]

1 hour ago, hippo said:

I find it ridiculous that we ever brought him

*bought

Buy = bought

Bring = brought

[Grasshopper]

14 minutes ago, darrenm said:

*bought

Buy = bought

Bring = brought

so he should have Bringed him in?

[sne]

4 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

so he should have Bringed him in?

[TRO]

It doesn't matter what position you play, you have to win the battles with your opponent.It has to come first

I have watched Villa over the last umpteen years not do that and they still expect to create some kind of effect.I have watched Villa of many moons ago do it all the time. The shaun Teales, the Steve Mcmahons, the kevin Richardsons, The Gareth Barry's.....players that can resist being bullied or out muscled and then go on to impose their skill.It is that way around.

I am not looking for a bunch of cloggers but I am looking for players who have POWER and PURPOSE, I'm sorry to say I don't see it......despite signings after signings.

I still worry that every time we enter the market, we sign players who lack those vital ingredients.....of course they have to be able to execute the finer arts, but opponents will deny you that unless you impose yourself and their resolve faulters to take advantage.

We will continue along this path unless we change it.

Ps Jedinak was an improvement on that score, but we need players to play alongside him( but bear in mind he is getting no younger) with intensity and presence to duel.

I am not saying this attribute is the only thing required, far from it.....but IMO this team is light of it.

Edited December 15, 2016 by TRO

[VillanousOne]

One thing you realise is RDM was unfortunate in that he never got a fully functioning Jedinak, but he got a half decent Bacuna and a promising Tish.

Bruce got a decent Jed and maybe two decent performances from Gardener plus an injured Bacuna, since then he's been flailing around clueless as to who to play with Jed, whether or not to play a two man midfield or a three man midfield.

The answer is, there is no answer with that midfield. I think Tish and Bacuna should play from now till whenever in Jan Bruce can buy some decent midfielders.

[VILLAMARV]

16 hours ago, TRO said:

It doesn't matter what position you play, you have to win the battles with your opponent.It has to come first

I have watched Villa over the last umpteen years not do that and they still expect to create some kind of effect.I have watched Villa of many moons ago do it all the time. The shaun Teales, the Steve Mcmahons, the kevin Richardsons, The Gareth Barry's.....players that can resist being bullied or out muscled and then go on to impose their skill.It is that way around.

I am not looking for a bunch of cloggers but I am looking for players who have POWER and PURPOSE, I'm sorry to say I don't see it......despite signings after signings.

I still worry that every time we enter the market, we sign players who lack those vital ingredients.....of course they have to be able to execute the finer arts, but opponents will deny you that unless you impose yourself and their resolve faulters to take advantage.

We will continue along this path unless we change it.

Ps Jedinak was an improvement on that score, but we need players to play alongside him( but bear in mind he is getting no younger) with intensity and presence to duel.

I am not saying this attribute is the only thing required, far from it.....but IMO this team is light of it.

SB might be just the man to sort this out TRO. Off the top of my head I can think of a few midfielders he's signed at various clubs over the years that would fit the bill. Diame, Cattermole, Huddlestone. That gives me a bit of confidence in this area.

[dn1982]

Grealish isn't ready to be played centrally yet. His best games for me have been from the left I dont mean his best moments I mean games. Has he ever ran a game for us from the central position? He may flourish with a stronger 2 behind but until then we need to play him left side with licence to come inside. I'd like to see Tish and Gardner played in a 3 with Jedinak. Westwood should only be used as a replacement for Jedinak. This is the biggest area that needs sorting now. Let's hope Bruce can do it. 

[TRO]

3 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

SB might be just the man to sort this out TRO. Off the top of my head I can think of a few midfielders he's signed at various clubs over the years that would fit the bill. Diame, Cattermole, Huddlestone. That gives me a bit of confidence in this area.

I agree and it's one of the reasons I wanted him.

He has said that just buying players for change sake is not the answer....and I agree with that too.....we have just presided over 100 mill in two summers and we have what we have......not exactly convincing.

The concern for us and him, is getting the right ones that make a difference....they are not always available and then that takes time to get them.

I like Steve and I think he has given these lads a chance to show what they can do and to some extent they have responded....I still think there is a soft/ passive undertone which I think he saw for himself on Tuesday.