CrackpotForeigner Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I notice the BBC had us on 62% v Leicester, 69% v Palace, 57% v Swansea (etc.) Lambert has made references to a deliberate decision to change tactics, so I think it's not much of a secret that it's been a conscious choice. It's also good to see that the team and manager do have it in them to execute a change of tactics. (For our next idea, how about: Score heaps of goals?!) But is it a wise choice? The results haven't improved yet, and so far there's no sign that our players are suited to it. I wonder if the last few games have been about preparing the players for the influx of one or two creative players, rather than just doing a suck-it-and-see. Maybe the January signings will answer that question. [An argument could easily break out here along the lines of "Where are all the people who wailed that we should be keeping the ball more" vs "Where are all the people that said things would improve under Lambert". But I think it's obvious we're far, far above that sort of thing here on VT. Sure it's a possibility that the manager could go, but for the purposes of this thread, let's assume that the owner sticks with him.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw_nuff Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Why change in the middle of a season? Why tie Gabby down to a new contract - probably the last player you'd ask to play in this style? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I notice the BBC had us on 62% v Leicester, 69% v Palace, 57% v Swansea (etc.) Lambert has made references to a deliberate decision to change tactics, so I think it's not much of a secret that it's been a conscious choice. It's also good to see that the team and manager do have it in them to execute a change of tactics. (For our next idea, how about: Score heaps of goals?!) But is it a wise choice? The results haven't improved yet, and so far there's no sign that our players are suited to it. I wonder if the last few games have been about preparing the players for the influx of one or two creative players, rather than just doing a suck-it-and-see. Maybe the January signings will answer that question. [An argument could easily break out here along the lines of "Where are all the people who wailed that we should be keeping the ball more" vs "Where are all the people that said things would improve under Lambert". But I think it's obvious we're far, far above that sort of thing here on VT. Sure it's a possibility that the manager could go, but for the purposes of this thread, let's assume that the owner sticks with him.] No team plays the possesion game so slowly and with as many men behind the ball as we do. I don't see any good coming of this - sure we kept clean sheets at Home to Sunderland and Crystal palace (who probably came for a 0-0) - conversley leicester could have scored 4 or 5. IMO and with the players we have we have to get the ball forward early - that doesn't mean booting it down the park at every opportunity - equally we won't score passing the ball amongst our selves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 with the players we have we have to get the ball forward early. Agreed, but that's not exactly the cutting edge of football management theory - I think Lambert probably knows this. That's why I'm hoping that he's expecting to get some creativity in, and I mean more than just one player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 It's not just creativity that's the problem though it's the front three also. Their movement is shit.Benteke either can't be arsed or is offside, and the chuckle brothers Wiemann and Gabby haven't got a brain cell between them and also have crap ball control. Lambert may have watched Bayern train but sadly we don't have Robben and Ribery either side of a world class striker so it will never work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 with the players we have we have to get the ball forward early. Agreed, but that's not exactly the cutting edge of football management theory - I think Lambert probably knows this. That's why I'm hoping that he's expecting to get some creativity in, and I mean more than just one player. Thats the problem IMO - was Ron Saunders the cutting edge of football management theory ? - Football is a simple game IMO. As soon as I seen us passing the ball sideways - I thought 'This won't get us many goals' - and so its proved - despite reassurance that this was the way to play ...and the goals would come in time. We weren't prolific before - but we could generally scramble enough goals to keep in the division - Benteke got 23 in 1 season. Even we sign creative players - we need a lot more zip to our game. Guzan Rolling the ball to Ally/Hutton isn't pretty to watch in any case - its boring - the ball generally gets passed around our cb'd for a few minutes - then we loose it just over the half way line - before benteke even gets the ball .....How is that progress ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Even we sign creative players - we need a lot more zip to our game. Guzan Rolling the ball to Ally/Hutton isn't pretty to watch in any case - its boring - the ball generally gets passed around our cb'd for a few minutes - then we loose it just over the half way line - before benteke even gets the ball .....How is that progress ? I hope you're not accusing me of saying that we've made progress. What I am saying is that if we do get some creativity, it might be just as well that we've been playing this way already. It has also been a good way of finding the limits of our players. Whether or not this is part of a managerial masterplan or just a misguided experiment I don't know. But I'm certainly HOPING that it's more A than B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Simon Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 My only gripe with the new way of playing is why is Lambert is trying to implement in the middle of a season? Isn't this huge transformation in both style and tactics exactly what pre-season is for? It just smacks of their being zero plan or strategy at Villa. I wouldn't be at all surprised that if in March / April we're struggling still we revert back to lumping it forward. We are so reactive, with very little pro-active planning. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) To be honest it just seems to be passing for the sake of passing. Possession football is good but you have to move the ball at pace to create chances. We pass the ball around so slowly it's easy to sit back and defend. Also I don't understand why there was this sudden change in the middle of the season. Lambert just doesn't give off any sense of confidence, conviction or having a plan in place, he just seems to bumble along hoping something will work. Edited January 12, 2015 by villa89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condimentalist Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 We don't have good enough forwards or attacking midfield players to do this properly. There's no menace in our play whatsoever. I'll be interested to see if we keep it up given our next 3 fixtures. I agree that it seems to be reactive as well - only a few weeks Lambert was chastising people bringing up our low possession stats, now he's using the very same stats to justify our poor results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevpants Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 The whole point of playing passing football is to pull the opposition players out of position and make them constantly adjust position, ultimately leading to a mix up or positional error and you're in. We have actually managed to do that but we don't have midfielders or wide players willing or able to run into the gaps. Towards the end of the first half against Leicester the was a shocking example of this. No surprise it was Cleverly involved. It was a series of passes down the right and Konchesky and their cb got completely out of sync and the left midfielder didn't cover. Sanchez had the ball and Cleverly was looking at a gap behind Konchesky that would have meant an easy ball from Sanchez paying him into the box. What did he do? He came short.I couldn't believe it. He saw the gap, he was looking at it but it was too adventurous for him. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 12, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted January 12, 2015 The whole point of playing passing football is to pull the opposition players out of position and make them constantly adjust position, ultimately leading to a mix up or positional error and you're in. We have actually managed to do that but we don't have midfielders or wide players willing or able to run into the gaps. Towards the end of the first half against Leicester the was a shocking example of this. No surprise it was Cleverly involved. It was a series of passes down the right and Konchesky and their cb got completely out of sync and the left midfielder didn't cover. Sanchez had the ball and Cleverly was looking at a gap behind Konchesky that would have meant an easy ball from Sanchez paying him into the box. What did he do? He came short.I couldn't believe it. He saw the gap, he was looking at it but it was too adventurous for him. Exactly this. There's nothing wrong with us keeping the ball, passing it sideways and backwards etc. That is how this style of play works. The problem is finding a final ball to compliment that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) The huge problem appears to be that whilst we're playing out from the back, we have enough players to do it effectively, because there are a large number of players in our own half. Conversely, when we have the ball in their final 1/3, we have no midfielders (apart from arguably Delph) that push forward enough to give our attacking players space to run into, or passes that can break through the opponents 18 yard box and get us into dangerous positions. We lack any kind of dynamism, which makes us incredibly easy to defend against. We've had a lack of movement for a very long period of time (O'Leary I'm talking!), this only makes us easier to mark etc. If we want to play possession football, you need players who can pass (check, it would seem), can move (no, it would seem) and are intelligent (debatable). When you play the possession game, you don't get space to run into, unless the opponents are pressing you high, in which case you just ping balls over the top, but when teams realise how poor we are at breaking defences down, they're happy to let us have the ball right up until the 18 yard box. Then we're susceptible to counters. For what it's worth, I quite like the potential it's given us. We can obviously pass to each other well, now what we need to do is learn how to break a team down. I think that's why it's quite exciting getting someone like Gil in, he might not be a great individual, but he will give our entire team something different, which may change the dynamic and lead us to greater success. But we lack real midfielders. I like Sanchez, but Westwood isn't athletic enough and doesn't present much of a goal threat, much like cleverly. Delph is ok, but he's off anyway. Cole is good but has lost his legs somewhat. Edited January 12, 2015 by lapal_fan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Villa fans: We'd love to see a passing style instead of all this long-ball, kick-and-rush stuff Lambert: OK, I've introduced a passing style Villa fans: But they're just passing it to each other in their own half and now we are scoring even fewer goals Lambert: Be careful what you wish for 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matrim Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 As others have mentioned the problem is movement. We are happy enough to pass it around the back 4 but when we move forward there is no movement. There was a time against Leicester where Cole had the ball about 30 yards out and was moving towards the wing. Cleverly just stood there about 5 yards from him not trying to create space. You could see the frustration on Coles face when he had to just knock it back to Westwood It should be pass and move, to try to get the ball forward in a positive manner. Instead it's pass and stay because you can't be caught out of position if the next pass is bad. Part of this may also be because of how narrow we are. There is often little space because everyone is bunched towards the center and no one is trying to create space on the wings or behind the full backs The other problems are that we sometimes stick to it too rigidly. It's nice to try do it, but if the opposition are pushed up against our defenders it can be fine to just play a long ball to Benteke. Or if someone makes an early run, play it to them. We used to do the quick counter attack, where Gabby, Wiemann etc broke quickly from a corner, but now you see Guzan catch it while everyone just jogs forward waiting for the short pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 The movement and decision making in the final 3rd is atrocious. That has to be down to more than just the players who are picked. Its not even like we've introduced new attacking players. Lambert has been able to work with benteke, gabby and weimman since his first summer at the club. Shocking that they still have no clue how to play together or form any kind of attacking threat as a unit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 The movement and decision making in the final 3rd is atrocious. That has to be down to more than just the players who are picked. Its not even like we've introduced new attacking players. Lambert has been able to work with benteke, gabby and weimman since his first summer at the club. Shocking that they still have no clue how to play together or form any kind of attacking threat as a unit. I believe movement is more of an intelligence based skill. I'm not sure how much of it can be trained in a short space of time and is probably much more of a long term mentality shift. For instance Barcelona's players learn how to pass and move that way from a young age and any players signed are either naturally gifted that way or have come from teams that also play a similar style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 You look at our play, and all I can think really is it must be a joy for the opposition. They must be sitting back and having a laugh "just let them do their little thing around the back, don't worry whilst they stay there they're not a threat, then we'll smash into em every now and then". Managers must be rubbing their hands in glee, they've hardly got to do anything...just take the occasional swipe and that results in plenty of half changes for them with some occasional conversion...i.e. leicester. I don't think we're fooling anyone right now with this new game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Tika Taka died, and thank McGrath it did. Boring old shite. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Tika Taka died, and thank McGrath it did. Boring old shite. Couldn't agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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