The ISIS threat to Europe

[Guest av1]

12 minutes ago, The_Rev said:

If the attack has been carried out by ISIS or it's sympathisers then it's probably worth saying that it's widely accepted that they were born out of some bloke called George Bush and his mate Tony Blair deciding that it would be a good idea to engineer regime change in Iraq and Syria by invading Iraq and doing everything we could to undermine the Syrian government. We made a right mess of Basra, we stood and watched a power vacuum be get created in Syria and it created a monster.  I'm not educated enough on the matter but it seems you can point to a hundred things in a hundred years which lead to the point where we are today, ill feeling over the creation of Israel, the way Britain and France handled the partition of the Ottoman Empire in the 1920s, the fact that we were in the Middle East about five minutes after oil was discovered. Shit, the British Navy was the most powerful military force in the world in the first part of the 20th century and it ran on Iraqi oil. There are strong arguments that we were more than happy to go to war with Germany in 1914 even if they hadn't invaded Belgium because they were planning on building a railway from Berlin to Baghdad which would have undermined us economically. The West (chiefly western Europe & the USA) are far from angels and our collective foreign policy, which conveniently doesn't get reported on much by the BBC and Sky News pisses a lot of people off globally.

Yes, it's easy to shout "bloody Muslims" or "bloody immigrants" and be done with it until next time, but if you look at the root cause of all of this ill feeling then It's not a simple case of good guys (us) vs bad guys (them) is it?

Your probably more educated than me on the subject, so I'm afraid I'm not really in a position to debate with you. 

What I would say however, is that whatever the root cause of the problem we undoubtedly have a problem between the Muslim world and the western world, and i fail to see how we can ever resolve this if, after every such atrocitie we have people claiming (as many have) that this is "just a few idiot's" and nothing to do with Islam. 

Yet to say we have a problem with Islam, I'm called a knuckledragger. How do you even begin to work on a problem when we aren't even allowed to say what the problem is?

[The_Rev]

Because perhaps you are misidentifying the problem?

[momo]

12 minutes ago, av1 said:

Your probably more educated than me on the subject, so I'm afraid I'm not really in a position to debate with you. 

What I would say however, is that whatever the root cause of the problem we undoubtedly have a problem between the Muslim world and the western world, and i fail to see how we can ever resolve this if, after every such atrocitie we have people claiming (as many have) that this is "just a few idiot's" and nothing to do with Islam. 

Yet to say we have a problem with Islam, I'm called a knuckledragger. How do you even begin to work on a problem when we aren't even allowed to say what the problem is?

Why is it a religion thing? The problem is the western countries invasion of non-western countries. So some people on the losing side of that war decides to take revenge. That they are Muslims is actually a consequence of the countries they are from, which is the countries the western countries invaded. It is quite logically.

Edited November 14, 2015 by momo

[LondonLax]

11 minutes ago, av1 said:

Your probably more educated than me on the subject, so I'm afraid I'm not really in a position to debate with you. 

What I would say however, is that whatever the root cause of the problem we undoubtedly have a problem between the Muslim world and the western world, and i fail to see how we can ever resolve this if, after every such atrocitie we have people claiming (as many have) that this is "just a few idiot's" and nothing to do with Islam. 

Yet to say we have a problem with Islam, I'm called a knuckledragger. How do you even begin to work on a problem when we aren't even allowed to say what the problem is?

Do you know any people who are Muslim av1? Any guys you work with or people you deal with on a regular basis who are Muslim?

[TheAuthority]

 

Donald Trump on Twitter.

 

"Isn't it interesting that the tragedy in Paris took place in one of the toughest gun control countries in the world?"

 

 

Edited November 14, 2015 by TheAuthority

[Arj Guy]

I will eat my hat if the attack wasn't related to Islam. It is the most backward and violent religion in the world. Read the Quran and you'll understand why. Moderate muslims are peaceful in spite of Islam not because of it.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Arj Guy

[TrentVilla]

8 minutes ago, av1 said:

Yet to say we have a problem with Islam, I'm called a knuckledragger. How do you even begin to work on a problem when we aren't even allowed to say what the problem is?

The personal abuse is neither warranted or acceptable.

In terms of the topic, the danger of discussions of this nature is the over simplified and dare I say ill considered choices of phrase which can often give a view point quite a different appearance to the one intended.

Grand generalisations talking about "muslims" or "immigrants" don't help.

The problem certainly isn't between the muslim world and western world in any shape or form.

This is no more to do with Islam than the KKK burning people alive or Anders Breivik was to do with Christianity.

[momo]

1 minute ago, Arj Guy said:

I will eat my hat if the attack wasn't related to Islam. It is the most backward and violent religion in the world. Read the Quran and you'll understand why. Moderate muslims are peaceful in spite of Islam not because of it.

Eat your hat. It is related to several wars in the Middle East started by Western invasion.

And Anders Behring Breivik says hello from his prison cell. He used the Christianity and the Bible to back his terror attacks.

And yesterday over 40 people were killed in Beirut. Muslims. But do we care about them?

[StefanAVFC]

The statement made about knuckledraggers wasn't originally aimed at people on this forum; more so at right wing nutjobs, so to then aim it anybody on this thread in particular was wrong and I apologise for it.

[TrentVilla]

9 minutes ago, momo said:

Why is it a religion thing? The problem is the western countries invasion of non-western countries. So some people on the losing side of that war decides to take revenge. That they are Muslims is actually a consequence of the countries they are from, which is the countries the western countries invaded. It is quite logically.

That is just as one sided as some of the other views expressed this evening only from a different view point. While Western foreign policy and intervention is a factor in all of this it isn't absolutely the entire cause.

[PongRiddims]

12 minutes ago, The_Rev said: If the attack has been carried out by ISIS or it's sympathisers then it's probably worth saying that it's widely accepted that they were born out of some bloke called George Bush and his mate Tony Blair deciding that it would be a good idea to engineer regime change in Iraq and Syria by invading Iraq and doing everything we could to undermine the Syrian government. We made a right mess of Basra, we stood and watched a power vacuum be get created in Syria and it created a monster.  I'm not educated enough on the matter but it seems you can point to a hundred things in a hundred years which lead to the point where we are today, ill feeling over the creation of Israel, the way Britain and France handled the partition of the Ottoman Empire in the 1920s, the fact that we were in the Middle East about five minutes after oil was discovered. Shit, the British Navy was the most powerful military force in the world in the first part of the 20th century and it ran on Iraqi oil. There are strong arguments that we were more than happy to go to war with Germany in 1914 even if they hadn't invaded Belgium because they were planning on building a railway from Berlin to Baghdad which would have undermined us economically. The West (chiefly western Europe & the USA) are far from angels and our collective foreign policy, which conveniently doesn't get reported on much by the BBC and Sky News pisses a lot of people off globally.

Yes, it's easy to shout "bloody Muslims" or "bloody immigrants" and be done with it until next time, but if you look at the root cause of all of this ill feeling then It's not a simple case of good guys (us) vs bad guys (them) is it?

Your probably more educated than me on the subject, so I'm afraid I'm not really in a position to debate with you. 

What I would say however, is that whatever the root cause of the problem we undoubtedly have a problem between the Muslim world and the western world, and i fail to see how we can ever resolve this if, after every such atrocitie we have people claiming (as many have) that this is "just a few idiot's" and nothing to do with Islam. 

Yet to say we have a problem with Islam, I'm called a knuckledragger. How do you even begin to work on a problem when we aren't even allowed to say what the problem is?

The problem is terrorism, not Islam. Terrorism didn't start with 9/11. From my limited understanding, most terrorism stems from previous oppression of a culture or country. It's not, given very recent history, unacceptable to assume that a terrorist attack may be from an Islamic group, but to make such an assumption you should probably be aware of other recent terrorism and also the role of the British (and also the French, Dutch, Spanish etc) empire throughout the years. There is no easy solution, but I think, on both sides of the argument, a little more modern and progressive thinking might help.

[BOF]

It will be very interesting to find out who is responsible for this.

[kurtsimonw]

12 minutes ago, momo said:

Why is it a religion thing? The problem is the western countries invasion of non-western countries. So some people on the losing side of that war decides to take revenge. That they are Muslims is actually a consequence of the countries they are from, which is the countries the western countries invaded. It is quite logically.

Why is it an West v East thing?

You're also making a generalisation here that non-West = Muslim. There are Muslim extremists fighting with ISIS from European countries. ountries like Britain that haven't been invaded, that haven't been on the "losing" side of that war. So why do these people fight? For religious reasons. So to make out that the religion of these extremists is just a consequence or coincidental is flat out wrong. Their religion is exactly why they're fighting.

Edited November 14, 2015 by kurtsimonw

[momo]

1 minute ago, TrentVilla said:

That is just as one sided as some of the other views expressed this evening only from a different view point. While Western foreign policy and intervention is a factor in all of this it isn't absolutely the entire cause.

It is more logical than saying they are terrorist because they are Muslims. I simplified it to make a point.

[Arj Guy]

2 minutes ago, momo said:

Eat your hat. It is related to several wars in the Middle East started by Western invasion.

And Anders Behring Breivik says hello from his prison cell. He used the Christianity and the Bible to back his terror attacks.

And yesterday over 40 people were killed in Beirut. Muslims. But do we care about them?

Yes killed by muslims. There is a huge difference between 1 man blaming his actions on the Bible and multiple terrorist organisations committing atrocities in the name of Allah frequently going back decades and decades 

[momo]

1 minute ago, kurtsimonw said:

Why is it an West v East thing?

You're also making a generalisation here that non-West = Muslim. There are Muslim extremists fighting with ISIS from European countries. ountries like Britain that haven't been invaded, that haven't been on the "losing" side of that war. So why do these people fight? For religious reasons. So to make out that the religion of these extremists is just a consequence or coincidental is flat out wrong. Their religion is exactly why they're fighting.

First of all, I get as disgusted as you get by terror attacks.

Secondly, I never made a generalization that non-West = Muslim, but Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan are predominantly Muslim countries. Has the USA-backed club invaded other countries? I have noticed the growing hostility against Muslims since 2001, and right wing politicians making points and getting into positions on the back of the fear of Muslims. Why France? I don't know. Maybe because they went to war against some Muslims in Mali 2 years ago? Maybe the ghettos are full of marginalized, poor and bored youth that see no future in a segregated France were Muslims are bottom of the social cast? Maybe ISIS finds it easier to get into France because it is easier to recruit idiots there than other countries in Europe that tries harder to integrate people? I don't know. I just know that it is not the religion they are fighting. It is much deeper than that.

[momo]

11 minutes ago, Arj Guy said:

Yes killed by muslims. There is a huge difference between 1 man blaming his actions on the Bible and multiple terrorist organisations committing atrocities in the name of Allah frequently going back decades and decades 

Oklahoma bombings.

George Bush "God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq" (google it)

The Crusaders.

Of the top of my head.

[VILLAMARV]

2 minutes ago, Arj Guy said:

Yes killed by muslims. There is a huge difference between 1 man blaming his actions on the Bible and multiple terrorist organisations committing atrocities in the name of Allah frequently going back decades and decades 

There is some truth in the bold bit, but then if you change Allah for God then it sounds like the other side to me.

[kurtsimonw]

3 minutes ago, momo said:

First of all, I get as disgusted as you get by terror attacks.

Secondly, I never made a generalization that non-West = Muslim, but Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan are predominantly Muslim countries. Has the USA-backed club invaded other countries? I have noticed the growing hostility against Muslims since 2001, and right wing politicians making points and getting into positions on the back of the fear of Muslims. Why France? I don't know. Maybe because they went to war against some Muslims in Mali 2 years ago? Maybe the ghettos are full of marginalized, poor and bored youth that see no future in a segregated France were Muslims are bottom of the social cast? Maybe ISIS finds it easier to get into France because it is easier to recruit idiots there than other countries in Europe that tries harder to integrate people? I don't know. I just know that it is not the religion they are fighting. It is much deeper than that.

I wasn't saying "Why France?" I was actually saying why do French/British/etc. born Muslims fight with ISIS? They aren't from the middle east, their country hasn't been invaded, they've lost no war. They associate with ISIS through religion and only religion. ISIS is also obviously a very religious driven group, it's all very much about their faith and little else.

[Arj Guy]

14 minutes ago, momo said:

Oklahoma bombings.

George Bush "God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq" (google it)

The Crusaders.

Of the top of my head.

Going back a thousand years for a major Christian based atrocity. Wow. For every 1 Christian, Jewish or anyother religious based atrocity there are hundreds and hundreds of Islamic ones.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Arj Guy