TrentVilla Posted July 17, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2016 I think most people are fully aware of that l, I'm not sure why it needs repeating over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 17, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2016 19 minutes ago, villanwesty88 said: One thing I would add to that is that they kill a hell of a lot of Muslims too. We are all united against ISIS and any terrorist organisation. I know, I totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 17, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2016 14 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: I think most people are fully aware of that l, I'm not sure why it needs repeating over and over. Probably true on this board, but I think generally the more widely aware people are that the victims are in majority Muslims, the less likely it is that innocent people will be attacked or harassed or abused in the west, for looking a bit brown, or looking a bit Muslim. It removes the claim of legitimacy (not that they have any) from the knobheads on buses and so on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 17, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, blandy said: Probably true on this board, but I think generally the more widely aware people are that the victims are in majority Muslims, the less likely it is that innocent people will be attacked or harassed or abused in the west, for looking a bit brown, or looking a bit Muslim. It removes the claim of legitimacy (not that they have any) from the knobheads on buses and so on. That would require a level of knowledge/insight/education/interest generally bejond such knuckle bouncers. Besides I think most people who do those things would still do them anyway even if they knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 17, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: That would require a level of knowledge/insight/education/interest generally bejond such knuckle bouncers. Besides I think most people who do those things would still do them anyway even if they knew that. Yeah sorry, what I mean is, is that if society widely knows, and is seen to know, that Muslims are the main victims, then the knuckle head racists will not feel secure in thinking they can get away with their attacks, because "everyone knows" Muslims are terrorist sympathisers. Does that make it any clearer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 17, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2016 Just now, blandy said: Yeah sorry, what I mean is, is that if society widely knows, and is seen to know, that Muslims are the main victims, then the knuckle head racists will not feel secure in thinking they can get away with their attacks, because "everyone knows" Muslims are terrorist sympathisers. Does that make it any clearer? I got what you meant the first time, just musing about the futility of trying to educate the hard of thinking, I agree with you though that there is a degree of legitimacy given to their actions (in some quarters) through misconceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 17, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2016 1 minute ago, TrentVilla said: I got what you meant the first time, just musing about the futility of trying to educate the hard of thinking, I agree with you though that there is a degree of legitimacy given to their actions (in some quarters) through misconceptions. I'm not on about educating the hard of thinking. I'm on about wanting the vast majority of people who can think for themselves to have, at the front of their minds, the awareness that most victims are Muslims, so that the knuckle heads will not have an environment where they would feel it's OK to abuse someone on a bus. I think we're on the same page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemk39 Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 anyway our globalist controlled media now state nice incident as a "truck attack" removing any link to religious fanatics. Obama refuses to use the I word. all controlled by the same upper hand. isis is a usa uk israel saud created and funded proxy army to remove assad which failed. they could be wiped out with a few b2 bomber sorties but the said governments choose not to. if theres 1000's of jihads plotting in the uk, are they incompetent as theres been nothing since the alleged 7/7 attack? or should we believe our security services are so brilliant after years of austerity cuts they prevent all these jihads attacking? do I think there is a threat? not by the ppl the media says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 17, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 17, 2016 You're not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Yeah, I'm not totally convinced that simply blaming The Matrix or The New World Order really moves us on much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, blandy said: Unfortunately the reason their religion gets mentioned is because these murderers are doing their terror in the name of Islam, in support for an Islamic caliphate. They are repeatedly killing people directly for not being Muslims, not being able to recite the Koran. It is Islamic terrorism. Being careful, it is not true to say they are nothing to do with Islam. They are and that's a problem. However somehow blaming, as you say, 1.6 billion peaceful Muslims for the deeds of others is totally wrong. Well, the majority of their victims are Muslims and it seems they don't discriminate when it comes to achieving their goal. Also people like Anders Breivik who kill in the name of western civilization/values or whatever. Nobody questions those values themselves and people seem to easily separate the extremist from the ideology. Or even football hooligans who do what they do in the name of their club or national team. It seems absurd to call the rest of the fans into question or even the Club itself for their actions, so why is it okay to do the same for Muslims and their religion? Edit: btw I'm not saying you or anyone else in this thread is doing that, but I feel like it's an increasingly prevalent sentiment held by a lot of people these days, and it's kind of worrying. Edited July 17, 2016 by Keyblade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted July 17, 2016 Administrator Share Posted July 17, 2016 16 minutes ago, davemk39 said: theres been nothing since the alleged 7/7 attack? The 7/7 attack wasn't alleged. It really happened. It wasn't just an excuse for me being late for work. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 17, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2016 2 hours ago, Keyblade said: Well, the majority of their victims are Muslims and it seems they don't discriminate when it comes to achieving their goal. Also people like Anders Breivik who kill in the name of western civilization/values or whatever. Nobody questions those values themselves and people seem to easily separate the extremist from the ideology. Or even football hooligans who do what they do in the name of their club or national team. It seems absurd to call the rest of the fans into question or even the Club itself for their actions, so why is it okay to do the same for Muslims and their religion? Edit: btw I'm not saying you or anyone else in this thread is doing that, but I feel like it's an increasingly prevalent sentiment held by a lot of people these days, and it's kind of worrying. You mention "football hooligans". Why did you mention football? They're not true football fans, true football fans love peace and sport, not fighting.... Why did you not just call them "hooligans" Who misbehave in football shirts? It's a silly point for a serious issue, but maybe it shows that yes we all are guilty of associating things together, when other parts of society really don't like the association being made? And on the other hand the associations made are not without validity. Whether that's people in England shirts brawling in Marseille, or people beheading hostages in the IS caliphate in front of an Islamic state flag. I also think that previously peaceful people (Muslims) leaving England, France, Belgium,Germany etc. going to the middle east to join ISIS is something that's a massive concern. Why are apparently moderate peaceful Muslims turning into killers? Their families are mortified, mystified and horrified. What aspect of Islam, or what distortion of Islam is involved in that process? It seems wrong to me to ignore the Islamic factor..we should try and understand it. We have one culture which is pretty much secular, non religious, where the rules are laid down by democracy and consent and we have another culture where the rules and structures are laid down in a holy book. The two are fundamentally different to their core. We have seen in both directions people from one culture going to the territory of the other culture and killing people against the rules of that place. When that happens humans label the incomers according to their perceptions and their key characteristics. That's why we get Islamic Terrorists, unbelievers (kaffir?), white supremacists, or indeed football hooligans: anyone with half a brain knows "not all American police are racists" not all Muslims are Terrorists, or terrorist sympathisers, and not all football fans are hooligans. Sorry, that's just a confused ramble. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Except that we all know, deep down inside every england fan, they are constantly scanning the area for patio furniture, even if they don't realise it or admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 17, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2016 15 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Except that we all know, deep down inside every england fan, they are constantly scanning the area for patio furniture, even if they don't realise it or admit it. As equal opportunities thugs, they will also accept pub furniture and other projectiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 17, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 17, 2016 3 hours ago, davemk39 said: anyway our globalist controlled media now state nice incident as a "truck attack" removing any link to religious fanatics. Obama refuses to use the I word. all controlled by the same upper hand. isis is a usa uk israel saud created and funded proxy army to remove assad which failed. they could be wiped out with a few b2 bomber sorties but the said governments choose not to. if theres 1000's of jihads plotting in the uk, are they incompetent as theres been nothing since the alleged 7/7 attack? or should we believe our security services are so brilliant after years of austerity cuts they prevent all these jihads attacking? do I think there is a threat? not by the ppl the media says. 3 hours ago, Chindie said: You're not right. To pick up on this... Avoiding the use of 'Islamic/Islamist', if this is the case (I've no idea). Couple of things. Motivation on the part of the killer hasn't yet been established. IS have claimed it, sure, but I wouldn't take their word for it, even if their record suggests (and I don't know if it does, I've not researched it) they only claim things where they have got their fingers involved. The motivation is important and, if it turns out for instance this is a troubled bloke who's flipped in the worst way, nailing your colours to the Islamist mast doesn't help anyone. Also, there is the problem of 'not spooking the horses'. There's obvious tensions towards the Islamic community and if you can avoid stoking that in populous any further by mistakenly legitimising the viewpoint that Islam = terrorists, then thats an understandable thing to do. I should add that, yes I know the Islamic community constantly tells us this isn't an Islam thing and these people aren't Muslims, and avoiding the usage of terms like Islamic or, more accurately Islamist, until things are clear (or better, less riled) is helping that viewpoint, I don't subscribe to that - unfortunately these people are Muslims, who follow sects of the religion inspired by details of their holy texts that have no place in modern society. Washing your hands of them as 'not Muslims' isn't helping. But I can completely understand the establishments 'care' in using terms that are easily misinterpreted and lead to society wide bubbling tensions further. ISIS foundations rubbish. ISIS is a splinter group of a regional al Qaeda that went on it's own even nuttier path. Al Qaeda was founded in the aftermath of the Soviet Afghan war, a war the US used as a proxy to undermine Soviet interests towards the Middle East and Indian subcontinent, they helped train and equip local fighters to fight off the Soviets (notably giving them Stinger missiles which neutralised the Soviet helicopter threat that was winning the war more or less on it's own). In the aftermath the top men in the Afghan ranks remained in contact and eventually came to the conclusion that the US was an enemy (for a variety of reasons, political meddling, religion etc) ultimately meaning that the US sowed it's own demons, not realising that these people aren;t just going to beat the Soviets and go home to never be heard of again. Al Qaeda was quite cleverly set up, Bin Laden came from a quite rich Saudi background and was well educated, his family were largely in construction and his education centred on business management, subsequently he basically established al Qaeda as a franchise operation, connections between cells were fairly loose and in essence it became a brand name for a philosophy of a particularly grim (Wahhabi/Salafist) form of Islam, largely founded in Saudi Arabia. One of the sects, a group which joined al Qaeda in 2004 based in Iraq, broke off a few years ago to form it's own group, now known as ISIS, which a slightly different philsophy, much more death cult-y and about fulfilling mad prophecy, when they effectively were able to capture a massive tract of land left unoccupied and ungoverned in Iraq and Syria following civil war in both countries (in both cases, off shoots of idiotic Western policy). Their funding comes from a variety of Arab countries, and from sympathisers world wide, and from the capture and control of money and facilities in their territory - they sell oil and related products on a black market to their neighbours, for instance. They aren't intentionally created by anyone, bar maybe the Saudis to exert influence on an unstable region. Their creation can be partly laid at the Wests' door, but pretty much entirely through idiocy, accident and lack of foresight than anything else. The West would much rather have Syria and Iraq be working efficiently, because every second that they aren't is costing all of the nations tied to the region time, and more over, money. As for wiping them out... These guys aren't running around Iraq and Syria in Napoleonic formations wearing uniforms and standing out in the desert waiting for a fight. If they were kind enough to do that I'm sure a few bombing runs would thin their ranks quite effectively. For a while. These people are holding cities. Cities with people that hate them. Cities with children in them. Cities with non-combatants of all sorts. And these people look like citizens. And they're living with normal people. We can't flatten Mosul. We can't turn most of North Eastern Iraq into glass, desert or not. We've targetting a few places, and made huge areas of urban space look like something from the beginning of Terminator 2, using guided missiles of the 'best' type (still killing dozens unlucky enough to have no choice but stay), and we've killed a few of them and we've helped the Kurds and other allies take some space back, but their still there and they're still getting people waltz across the Turkish border. And even if we could carpet bomb the whole area, and we could vaporise every one of them there in the Iraq and Syria right now, and somehow not kill some kid who can't even comprehend what this all is, their philosophy doesn't go away. Their philosophical cousins in al Nusra or Al Qaeda are right there. There are still books and preachers and sympathisers world wide. That isn't being funded by the Jews, or the Yanks, or the EU. It is being esoused by sections of the Saudis for their own ends, and some of the Emirates. Theres far more to this than killing some crazies in the desert. UK jihadis. We have very good security forces. Some of the best in the world, helped by years of vigilance and learning from the threat from the IRA. And they keep getting more powers because of this modern threat. The numbers they talk about of potential Jihadis are certainly not accurate. Who knows what they call a jihadi? Someone who looked at Dabiq? Someone who downloaded certain pamphlets and guides? Who knows. But there will be people plotting. And they get caught all the time. These are quite normal people. They aren't geniuses. Some of them are genuinely thick - a quick google will lead to dozens of stories of Islamist sympathisers who had really **** stupid ideas, and away from the UK loads of them blow themselves up making bombs or mess up the mixture and nothing happens or they burn their bollocks in the case of the underpants bomber. But otherwise they're normal people and all the clever ways they can try to remain undiscovered eventually get cottoned on to. The ones that succeed are the ones that blindside us. The ones that genuinely come up with new ways of hiding their activities, that choose attacks that require little planning (known darkly as one with a short fuse before the bang...). But we work that out and they eventually start to get caught as well. Some get 'lucky' and slip through the net. The security services have done quite well compared to other services in times of austerity. They've gained powers, and will soon have more. They do a good job but 7/7, which isn't alleged at all, whatever that's meant to mean, is testament to their ability to fail. And it will happen again. There is absolutely a threat. The media may overstate it, because it sells viewers and papers, but it exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 17, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 17, 2016 4 hours ago, Keyblade said: Well, the majority of their victims are Muslims and it seems they don't discriminate when it comes to achieving their goal. Also people like Anders Breivik who kill in the name of western civilization/values or whatever. Nobody questions those values themselves and people seem to easily separate the extremist from the ideology. Or even football hooligans who do what they do in the name of their club or national team. It seems absurd to call the rest of the fans into question or even the Club itself for their actions, so why is it okay to do the same for Muslims and their religion? Edit: btw I'm not saying you or anyone else in this thread is doing that, but I feel like it's an increasingly prevalent sentiment held by a lot of people these days, and it's kind of worrying. It doesn't in the grand scheme of things really matter who their victims are. It's a useful line for when you come up against a real thicko, the kind of idiot that thinks all the 'Moslems' (because they always spell it like that, I'm assuming they think it's clever) are here to breed Britain brown, tear down the churches, install sharia law, put Tracy in a burkha, ban bacon and rape your kids. They're still murdering people. And unfortunately their justification is Islam. It might be a warped version, but the words and passages are right there. They might be countered elsewhere or the common interpretation today has altered but they are there and these people are Islamic, whether they mostly kill Muslims (which I know they do, their interpretation of the unalterable word of god says these Muslims aren't 'true' Muslims so they're legitimate targets) or not. It is an Islam problem. And Islam has skin in the game, so to speak. These people are a problem for the Islamic community, whether they're gunning down your brethren or only going for infidels and apostates. They're bad PR. I know the guys I worked with and was friends with, and the guy who delivers my Amazon packages, and the bloke in the outdoor, the pick and choose hot but allegedly strict Muslim girl I worked with, aren't anything to do with the guys hurling gays off towers, slaughtering towns because they believe in the wrong take on page 387 of the Qur'an, but it's the same books they're reading from (if they're at all devout, many weren't), and they align themselves on very different branches of the same tree... They aren't doing Islam any favours. Even if we know that they don't really represent Islam in it's usual form. The Islamic world collectively washing their hands of them of them with a simple 'Of course they aren't Muslims' isn't really accurate, and more importantly doesn't help anything. If you're unkind it makes the Islamic community look like they don't care, they aren't Muslims not our problem. Of course there is work being done by the Islamic community to tackle it, and it would be foolish to say otherwise, but more really needs to be done because the fight at it's fundamental level is against an interpretation of the faith, and most of the West isn't qualified to do that, not least of all because it would seem disingenuous to have white Christian American telling disaffected Muslims how their religion ought to work.The West has it's own work to do getting poor, disenfranchised young Muslim men into situations where they don't suddenly turn to the mad imam who tells them their life will be improved immeasurably if they blow up a bus filled with infidel whores and crusaders. Islam needs to make sure that Imam either doesn't exist or is a laughing stock. This turned into far more of a ramble than I expected... More beer needed. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 It's okay, we're all on a bit of a ramble today . Good to see all the different perspectives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will87 Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 As for if this latest guy was an Islamist, didn't he shout Allahu Akbar right before driving into the crowd? Does sound like he was looking to redeem his ticket to paradise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 17, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 17, 2016 35 minutes ago, will87 said: As for if this latest guy was an Islamist, didn't he shout Allahu Akbar right before driving into the crowd? Does sound like he was looking to redeem his ticket to paradise. I hadn't read that anywhere, but it doesn't really prove anything either way. Whilst most western exposure to the phrase comes shortly before a 'boom', it's connotations extend beyond that. Turks were shouting it in the streets the other night. It may be that he, as a Muslim, knew he was probably going to end up dead doing this (whatever his reasoning for doing it) and if he did shout that it's not that different thinking to someone praying to be saved in some horrible situation. Don't get me wrong I'm not going to be astonished if this bloke is influenced by an Islamist cause, but it's not black and white yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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