The ISIS threat to Europe

[Awol]

@StanBalaban brilliant post, reflects very closely my experience in Oman which is only slightly more conservative than UAE. 

One thing I think we do have to face up to is motivation. However twisted, misguided etc the interpretation these killers hold regarding Islam, the motivation is to achieve martyrdom by killing in God's name.

That idea is there in black and white in the holy book, which happens to be the unchangable word of God. 

Getting past that is a challenge no one knows how to meet, but it is the ultimate source of and justification for an individual's motivation to kill. 

[omariqy]

Absolutely sickening stuff. Not sure how you can stop something like that. Certainly not by bombing more innocent people. The answer lies within the Muslim community I am afraid. One is education, to make sure the youth understand the religion properly and do not fuel their hatred by following some death cult. Secondly, Muslim countries need to come together to fight ISIS. If countries like France and Russia continue to bomb places like Syria then it will just create more enemies and more incidents like this.

[chakal]

9 hours ago, Jareth said:

Completely unjust. The guy who has done this is dead, but has caused so much damage and misery. I am a proud brummie and I feel so sad for every muslim in Brum tonight, this has been done in the name of a warped version of their religion. It **** sucks to be let down by such murderous idiots wearing your colours.

You didn't write a word about victims, but you FEEL SAD for muslims in Birmingham??? Some of you there are really acting like lambs to the slaughter. Wake up.
 

[StanBalaban]

@Keyblade the UAE is both frustrating and fascinating place, but somewhere that's welcomed me for the last 9 years. Be good to have you over here pal!

I'm not sure if I articulated the point well enough, but what we often take for granted is that we are free to choose our stance on different aspects of our lives and the lives of others. some things naturally make us react in horror, some make us scared, others we're more laissez faire about and there are things we love, enjoy and embrace.

The difference with those firmly entrenched in any organised religion, is that the freedom to decide how you feel about certain things is removed, and you're told it's either right or wrong. When faced with this is mentality, discussion breaks down. It's absolute, and even the most intelligent person cannot be swayed to fight their traditions. I'm not sure how humanity can deal with this.

Ordinarily we look to the next generation to rise up and make a change, but that's not really happening. There was the Arab Spring, but it flies in the face of serious repercussions if they petition change in religious views. And again, they're not guidelines they're deemed the direct words of god.

Like Catholicism, Islam is a conquering religion where birth control is not permitted. They're agressive recruiters that promotes large families adopting the same religion but whereas one is on the wain, the other is more active than ever. 

[BOF]

Probably right @omariqy and then we come full circle to politics again, and international relations, and for me the appetite for one country to even want to get on with another if it doesn't benefit them to do so.  See Britain's relationship with Saudi and everyone's relationship with Israel.  My enemy's enemy etc etc.  Then you see the moronic reactions on the likes of twitter from 'this' side of the coin where people are lapping up the opportunity to hate the wrong people.  What Daesh are succeeding in doing is splitting the world into 2 significant factions with another looking on from the sideline.  Until the world genuinely and unanimously unites against what is a pithy little operation in the grand scheme of things then this pithy little terrorist group will continue to perplexingly punch way above their weight.  But as it stands, so so many people are pointing fingers at the wrong people.  It's face-punchingly infuriating.

[StefanAVFC]

5 minutes ago, chakal said:

You didn't write a word about victims, but you FEEL SAD for muslims in Birmingham??? Some of you there are really acting like lambs to the slaughter. Wake up.
 

Excuse me?

[NurembergVillan]

I don't understand the notion that all Muslims need to be speaking out and condemning these attacks.  That suggests that they're reaching out to like minded people and stand a chance of convincing them to stop what they're doing, when that's not the case.

I don't remember anyone on here apologising on behalf of the Russian football hooligans in Marseille.

[StanBalaban]

9 minutes ago, BOF said:

Very interesting post @StanBalaban.  Interesting insight into the cognitive dissonance that exists over there.  Maybe the hypocrisy that is demonstrated by the hedonistic younger generation is a small seed that could grow in time.  A lot of time.  But probably not soon enough.

That's the key, BOF. There is a very real sense from those Saudi kids that one they cross the border into the UAE they are free to do what they like. This would indicate that they're not really fearful of the 'omnipotent and omnipresent' Allah, but more of the elder generation in Saudi.

We've all seen the Arabian party boys in London. I've been on a few boat parties held by locals on their yachts were anything goes. I'm not saying that this is a good thing either, but it does show a chink in the belief system. Again, I'm sure this is a small percentage of people once more, but there is an appetite for a more 'liberal' Islam. The problem is that it's too much effort and not enough of a cause for the younger generation for debate and argue for. Many will be cut off from their families and their wealth, so why bother? They'll just do what they do behind closed doors until it's out of their system and they grow to become the establishment themselves. 

I often wonder what would happen if the Arabian world were privvy to what goes on behind closed doors on the Saudi royal yacht when it's moored in Ibiza - seeing these worshiped figure heads getting up to all sorts. Would it be like the unveiling of the Wizard, or would be drive the people into a new level of austerity?

[snowychap]

Just read this on this Beeb article:

Quote

Although the attacker had a pistol, all the other weapons found in the lorry turned out to be fake, which raises questions about the extent of support he had from jihadist groups.

 

[Xann]

3 minutes ago, chakal said:

... but you FEEL SAD for muslims in Birmingham???

Yeah. Many of us went to school with them, Hindus and Jews too, and grew up together as friends.

Thick, ignorant or divisive people tar them all with the same brush.

[blandy]

49 minutes ago, StanBalaban said:

the longer I live here in the UAE the more I come to realise that the common ground we need as a planet simply does not exist. 

From reading your post, it seems like it exists in Dubai, Stan. And I think it exists in plenty of other places too. Isn't it more a case that there are a minority of places where it doesn't exist, but that in those places the extreme nature of what happens kind of captures the news and makes people think things are a lot worse than they are overall.

I think Omar's right, the only solution to the killing enacted by murderous muslims has to come from peaceful muslims. And the West and Russia needs to help, from a distance, by behaving a lot differently to how it does right now.

[villaglint]

Of course also Stan this chink in the armour of the belief system is also a big part of what motivates the extremists. They are scared about the future of Islam and will do anything to drag it back to a much more strict adherence. 

[TrentVilla]

30 minutes ago, omariqy said:

Absolutely sickening stuff. Not sure how you can stop something like that. Certainly not by bombing more innocent people. The answer lies within the Muslim community I am afraid. One is education, to make sure the youth understand the religion properly and do not fuel their hatred by following some death cult. Secondly, Muslim countries need to come together to fight ISIS. If countries like France and Russia continue to bomb places like Syria then it will just create more enemies and more incidents like this.

Spot on mate.

[StefanAVFC]

It's a grim circle at the moment.

Radicalised people commit atrocities in the name of Islam -> Attacked country retaliates -> Innocent people lose lives ->  More people radicalised -> Radicalised people commit atrocities in the name of Islam

[StanBalaban]

16 minutes ago, blandy said:

From reading your post, it seems like it exists in Dubai, Stan. And I think it exists in plenty of other places too. Isn't it more a case that there are a minority of places where it doesn't exist, but that in those places the extreme nature of what happens kind of captures the news and makes people think things are a lot worse than they are overall.

I think Omar's right, the only solution to the killing enacted by murderous muslims has to come from peaceful muslims. And the West and Russia needs to help, from a distance, by behaving a lot differently to how it does right now.

Dubai's a funny one Blandy. It's very progressive in the sense that they've long-planned for the oil running out. They're geographically blessed in the sense that they're a gateway from Europe to the Far East and very much want to become the hub of business and commerce for the region. To do that, they have to welcome the world and there is everything here to make the expat and tourist feel at home. It is a hugely successful melting pot of different nationalities and cultures living together in a small country. Happy days, right? Well, not quite.

The problem, as ever, boils down to money. In order to shift the economy from oil dependence into commerce and tourism - with Dubai's tourist trade growing rapidly year-on-year and with both Emirates and Etihad airlines from the UAE becoming the primary choice for the western traveler - the funding for a lot of these projects has come from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Saudi don't just want the cash returns from their investments, they also want their voice to be heard across the Arab world. For the first time ever, restaurants and bars have been serving food and alcohol before sunset during Ramadan, as the business model cannot stop for a whole month - except the Saudi funded ones.

Saudi is not progressive, does not seek change or evolution yet controls the purse strings of not only the entire Arabian region, but largely the US too. For effective change and tolerance to spread, it is from from KSA that it needs to originate.

Edited July 15, 2016 by StanBalaban

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Getting out of the ME is probably the best the West can do, then leave it up to the regional powers to find a peaceful solution to the main sectarian division and fight Isis and the rest of the extremists. I struggle to see that happening because those divisions run very deep. But if we keep sticking our noses in and blowing up innocent people then it will only reinforce the the power imbalance and the sense of hopelessness and anger that comes from knowing that the actions of a few nutters will lead to a town or village being totaled, or a few wars being started. That sense of hopelessness is what Isis and such feed on, and any long term strategy needs to focus on improving the lives and life chances of people in the region.

On the other hand, what the future holds for Muslims in Europe, I've no idea. The continent seems to be shifting further and further to the right, and a lot of people will look to the wrong people with the wrong answers. But I do think there still remains a proud humanist and liberal strain within the European community and the more extreme sentiments will lose out.

Edited July 15, 2016 by CarewsEyebrowDesigner

[villaglint]

Of course such an action would hugely embolden the likes of ISIS though CED and likely see the region lurch more in the direction they want. 

Such a complex issue that has consequences for everyone. 

[blandy]

9 minutes ago, CarewsEyebrowDesigner said:

On the other hand, what the future holds for Muslims in Europe, I've no idea. The continent seems to be shifting further and further to the right, and a lot of people will look to the wrong people with the wrong answers.

That's different to how I see it. I think Europe is absolutely not shifting to the right. I think it's polarising to both the left and the right. The same thing to an extent seems to be happening in America. There's (at least) 2 different things going on. There's a move to the left which is basically down to the economy and unfairness and inequality and cronyism and elites stitching things up and ordinary people paying for the bankers misdeeds.

Then because of war and terrorism there's a move to the right, a fear of foreigners, muslims, minorities and people seemingly wanting to have "control". The terrorism acts as a recruiting agent for the right wing extremists and to a degree so does the poverty and inequality as they use immigrants (or indeed the EU) as  the thing to blame for the poverty, when neither is true, but it makes an easy target.

[Keyblade]

18 minutes ago, CarewsEyebrowDesigner said:

Getting out of the ME is probably the best the West can do, then leave it up to the regional powers to find a peaceful solution to the main sectarian division and fight Isis and the rest of the extremists. I struggle to see that happening because those divisions run very deep. But if we keep sticking our noses in and blowing up innocent people then it will only reinforce the the power imbalance and the sense of hopelessness and anger that comes from knowing that the actions of a few nutters will lead to a town or village being totaled, or a few wars being started. That sense of hopelessness is what Isis and such feed on, and any long term strategy needs to focus on improving the lives and life chances of people in the region.

On the other hand, what the future holds for Muslims in Europe, I've no idea. The continent seems to be shifting further and further to the right, and a lot of people will look to the wrong people with the wrong answers. But I do think there still remains a proud humanist and liberal strain within the European community and the more extreme sentiments will lose out.

I hope that's the case. Really worried at how things are shaping up in Europe. At least America has the constitution to always fall back on which the right is very fond of there.

[Gary Thomas]

1 hour ago, StanBalaban said:

...........

For sure, Muslims shouldn't need to apologise for every terrorist action, just as most of us (all be it on a much less serious scale) need not apologise for English football hooligans, but one also needs to understand the thought process and pysche of the Muslim world. The vast majority of Muslims don't want bloodshed either in their homelands or in the Western world. Most will look at the Western way of living and say I don't agree with this lifestyle but let them carry on - but herein lies the problem IMO. The lifestyle that these terrorist seek to punish and conquer with torture and death are still the same Western "choices" that the moderate Muslim will consider a sin. The moderate Muslim still views the west as the land that along with all the good and a potentially better standard of living, still contains loose morals, gays, booze, drugs and gambling. Whilst they certainly don't wish any harm upon their neighbours, internally their teachings from god will similarly prevent them from coming out in support because those principles are ingrained into them.

It's both fascinating and terrifying as the longer I live here in the UAE the more I come to realise that the common ground we need as a planet simply does not exist. 

The world has always been a divisive place with different belief systems, values and cultures coexisting; sometimes clashing terribly, sometimes living in relative harmony. As you say, a lot of Muslims frown upon certain Western values but will turn a blind eye and let them carry on, just as many Westerners will frown upon the beliefs and practices of non-western religions, but will generally turn a blind eye and let them carry on.  You finished your excellent post with the apocalyptic line: “the longer I live here in the UAE the more I come to realise that the common ground we need as a planet simply does not exist.”  But what is that common ground that supports our coexistence?  It is not compatible belief systems or shared common values about what constitutes good versus bad lifestyles, or sinful transgressions; I don’t think that ever has, or could be the case. To me the common ground that loosely binds us is our shared humanity; our innate recognition of the preciousness of life. Whether you are from a Muslim, Christian, Hindu or non-religious background, we all love someone, we all recognize the bond between a parent a sibling, the innocence of a child, the pain felt when we see a loved one suffer. Most people on this planet share that humanity and it is that which provides the ground we need to coexist. Fundamentalism, in all its guises, is a cancer that is eating away at that basic humanity by replacing it with twisted toxic ideologies that allow people to commit systematic murder in the name of a higher cause. Now whether or not we agree with the lifestyles or values of those being murdered should be besides the point, we all know it is evil and inhumane and that is something we should all, as fellow human beings, rally against regardless of our religion, background or race.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Gary Thomas