The ISIS threat to Europe

[blandy]

45 minutes ago, peterms said:

The destruction of entire states and social systems in the Middle East is the direct and unarguable consequence of US (and Saudi, Israeli etc) foreign policy.

That has created enormous resentment and hostility among both the people personally and directly affected, and others too.  Similarly (for example), many Irish people have been brought up to resent the conduct of the British state because of the conduct of the Black and Tans.  People don't have to be the personal victim of a direct act of oppression for that to be the case.

The actions of the US and others, including us, have created both the material conditions (collapse of the social order, proliferation of weapons, absence of rule of law) and more than enough motivation to strike back.  Where those material conditions apply, we see the rise of militias, sometimes ant-west, sometimes pursuing more local grievances, sometimes supported and funded by western states in order to harm Assad and others.  Where only the motivation exists, we see random acts of terror.

The reason that Isis dress people in orange jumpsuits before beheading them is not because they have a poor sense of fashion, or they have a job lot they bought at discount.  It is an obvious reference to Abu Ghraib and other acts of torture, to signal that it is an act of revenge which will stir the sympathy of many people who themselves have not been individually oppressed, but who quite naturally bitterly resent the actions of the self-declared world policeman.

Western interference in the ME has created deep opposition, and among the many millions who see that this warmongering interference is utterly morally wrong, a tiny number will choose to take direct action by murdering at random.  When these acts of terrorism happen, the general reaction seems to be astonishment, and a refusal to accept that there could be any connection between what we have been doing, and how people react to our serial invasions.  To deny the connection frankly seems perverse.  And yet we are told that these acts of terror happen not because of our actions, but because "they hate our freedom".

There's a whole chunk of truth in that, but to pin it all on the US or US, the West and Israel is still, to my eyes to over egg the pudding massively. The whole region has long been a barely stable mesh of Dictatorships, Royal rule, sectarianism, oppression, torture, inequality, religious lunacy, terrorism, state brutality and so on.

Motives matter too. When, for example, people in the west - people like you, wanted "us" to act when Libya was undergoing the anti Gaddafi uprisings and the fighting there, you were I'm certain, doing so because you thought "we" could make it better, could help people. Turned out to be quite wrong, but the human desire people had to want to try and intervene was benign and commendable, I suppose.

The people wanted rid of Gaddafi, and eventually they got him. The west, for sure, had been both supportive of, and strongly anti him, depending on the decade and world events, so the hypocrisy of Western involvement in getting rid of him can be pointed at, yet it still wasn't the west or the US doing the mayhem. The west didn't start the fire.

Personally I wasn't so keen on us getting involved to start with, which perhaps makes me hard hearted, but I generally can't see how or when our military involvement in the middle east and all its wars and conflicts tends to have ever really been beneficial, or how we've ever had the faintest idea of what "success" would look like and how to achieve it. You could argue the first Gulf war when Saddam invaded Kuwait, I suppose and that worked because there was a clear aim - repel Iraq from Kuwait, then we were unable to deal with Saddam properly.

So I think Muslim Brotherhood, Dictatorship, simmering resentment, Hezbollah, Hamas, Dictatorships, Royal rule, sectarianism, oppression, torture, inequality, religious lunacy, terrorism, state brutality, Turkey, Russia, Iran, uncle Tom Cobbley and all are also involved and that there's not really an option for peaceful westernised democracy to result. The people seem to want to go on with their religionist type states.

Blaming just the West or USA/Israel is to (IMO) overlook a whole bunch of other stuff by other players and factors.

[TrentVilla]

58 minutes ago, peterms said:

I would certainly expect it to be reported.  It has more than local and individual significance.

Very obviously, an attack on people praying in a mosque is an attack on people who will certainly be Muslims.  It's not as though the attacker would have been wandering down the road, intent on attacking someone but indifferent as between choosing a supermarket, a post office, or a mosque, any more than when a shaven-headed **** with the IQ of a shoe throws a pig's head at a mosque in Luton or Gateshead, they were undecided between that or the local chippy as the target.

Often in these cases, we hear the line about it being a random act by someone with mental health problems, as though mental health and political extremism are two quite separate things.  Quite possibly the perpetrators do have mental health issues.  But what is beyond doubt is that an attack on a mosque is a political act, no matter what other factors may also be present.

What I would expect to see reported and discussed, is how a climate of opinion exists, how it is fed by the narrative of scum like Farage and his counterparts in other places, which can lead people to justify these acts to themselves.

Sorry but I don't agree and I think you've made some pretty big leaps in the above.

We don't know it has more significance than being a local story, that is purely your assumption.

Yes the people in the Mosque will be Muslim it doesn't though automatically follow that they were targeted for that reason. They might have been, they might not have been. As I said in my original post the motive isn't known or hasn't been identified yet, the only thing reported is the link to another murder. It could be an entirely personal motivation with the attacker known to the victims. Who knows, it could be like the murder of that poor shop keeper and have been committed by a fellow Muslim we don't know.

So as I said, I agree with the original point being made but I don't agree in relation to this example with them information currently available.

One other thing I don't agree with is your line that 'an attack on a mosque is a political act, no matter what other factors may also be present', it might have political consequences but it isn't in and of itself automatically a political act. Is it a political act when a teenager destroys graves in a church yard? 

Further there is a distinction between an attack on a mosque and a attack on people in a mosque, they are or at least could be two entirely different things. A Muslim man could for any number of reasons attack another Muslim man within a mosque. That wouldn't be an attack on the mosque and neither would it be a political act.

On your last line about a wider discourse on this matter I agree generally speaking but once again would point out that you are assuming the motives of this attack in Zurich.

 

 

[TrentVilla]

1 hour ago, Keyblade said:

You're right. But lack of casualties or information has never stopped the media from wildly speculating before has it. This just really isn't 'news'. That church in France with 1 casualty warranted full day coverage though.

No but then that can also depend on the news day, as I said there were two much higher profile incidents.

Listen I'm not saying there isn't a bias in the media, far from it. As I said originally I agreed with your point just not particularly this example based on the limited information available.

The incident you refer to in France I assume is the one where the vicar was murdered? I'd argue that had that happened in isolation in say Portugal and without any link to the ISIS narrative we'd likely not heard about it. But coming as it did among other incidents in France and with the ISIS link it was always going to be bigger news.

I accept there is a bias in the media. But I also recognise that other factors can be in play such as other news events or the lack thereof, plus the theme of news. So for instance if there were a wave of attacks on Mosque's I think it would be a bigger story. The media love interlocking stories, stories in isolation such as the one in Zurich with no real narrative don't have much play, that is less about bias and more about the reality of modern media.

[TrentVilla]

Anyway, back to ISIS and the incident in Germany.

It appears they've identified their key suspect having found his blood in the cab and his driving license under the seat! (a little hard to believe that one I know)

Looking at the pictures the lorry has half a shed through the windscreen on the drives side, he can't have been unscathed by that.

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, TrentVilla said:

No but then that can also depend on the news day, as I said there were two much higher profile incidents.

Listen I'm not saying there isn't a bias in the media, far from it. As I said originally I agreed with your point just not particularly this example based on the limited information available.

The incident you refer to in France I assume is the one where the vicar was murdered? I'd argue that had that happened in isolation in say Portugal and without any link to the ISIS narrative we'd likely not heard about it. But coming as it did among other incidents in France and with the ISIS link it was always going to be bigger news.

I accept there is a bias in the media. But I also recognise that other factors can be in play such as other news events or the lack thereof, plus the theme of news. So for instance if there were a wave of attacks on Mosque's I think it would be a bigger story. The media love interlocking stories, stories in isolation such as the one in Zurich with no real narrative don't have much play, that is less about bias and more about the reality of modern media.

No you're totally right. I'm just venting as I have family there who probably frequent that mosque.

[TrentVilla]

8 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

No you're totally right. I'm just venting as I have family there who probably frequent that mosque.

Understandably so. Glad they are okay.

[Awol]

I think these incidents also have to be put in the context of where they occurred. 

In Normandy two Muslims guys walked into a church, made the Priest kneel before the alter then sawed off his head before receiting the Shahadah. The shock factor of that pretty much ensured it was going to lead the news for a day.

Had two Christians done the same to an Imam in any Islamic country the streets would have run with Christian blood for weeks as revenge attacks were carried out. That's exactly what happened when a few western newspapers published a few cartoons!! 

Complaining about the butchery of the Priest being reported quite  heavily seems to be deliberately holding the west to an entirely different and totally unfair standard. 

 

[AshVilla]

4 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

It appears they've identified their key suspect having found his blood in the cab and his driving license under the seat! (a little hard to believe that one I know)

ID left by a terrorist what a surprise!

[Chindie]

42 minutes ago, AshVilla said:

ID left by a terrorist what a surprise!

Given that the point of terrorism is to use fear to send a political message, it's helpful to actually know what the point was, and doing so is easier if you know who the perpetrator is, particularly if the action is this generic kind of violence. So leaving ID isn't a shocker. 

[TrentVilla]

1 minute ago, Chindie said:

Given that the point of terrorism is to use fear to send a political message, it's helpful to actually know what the point was, and doing so is easier if you know who the perpetrator is, particularly if the action is this generic kind of violence. So leaving ID isn't a shocker. 

Especially if you think you are quite likely to be killed in the event.

[peterms]

6 hours ago, blandy said:

So I think Muslim Brotherhood, Dictatorship, simmering resentment, Hezbollah, Hamas, Dictatorships, Royal rule, sectarianism, oppression, torture, inequality, religious lunacy, terrorism, state brutality, Turkey, Russia, Iran, uncle Tom Cobbley and all are also involved and that there's not really an option for peaceful westernised democracy to result. The people seem to want to go on with their religionist type states.

Blaming just the West or USA/Israel is to (IMO) overlook a whole bunch of other stuff by other players and factors.

Yes, I agree that all those things play a pretty big part as well.

I would add that some of those things are in themselves the consequence of the game we've been playing for over 100 years, destabilising governments, supporting the overthrow of them in the hope of installing client governments, playing countries and factions off against each other to keep things unstable.

In more recent years the mantle of chief fomenter of instability has passed to the US.

[Chindie]

1 minute ago, TrentVilla said:

Especially if you think you are quite likely to be killed in the event.

Indeed.

And it may be the case he wants the world to know he did it, as some kind of perverted need to confirm it was him (to an organisation if he was in contact, though that's doubtful here, to family, friends, perhaps even just a feeling he needs the world to know he did it). To have his name in the history books of martyrs, or even just the notoriety. Given the bloke is going to be a complete nobody, I can see the perverted appeal of being notorious, especially if some figure you respect has indoctrinated you into thinking your sinful waste of a life could easily become something God would smile on if only you kill some innocents...

 

[TrentVilla]

It's emerging that the chap who left his license behind was a failed asylum seeker who should have been deported 6 months ago and was a known to Police but they lost track of him.

Bad few days for Merkel.

[choffer]

I'd heard on the radio that they were surveilling him but had stopped because he hadn't done anything naughty.

Edited December 22, 2016 by choffer

[TrentVilla]

 

Big developments in Syria, Turkey has sent troops into a town called al-Bab and is claiming to have killed 1000+ ISIS fighters.

[HanoiVillan]

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by HanoiVillan

[chrisp65]

We're the world's second largest arms exporter now.

It's going to be part of Sajid Javid's British Oath that we have to respect each other, live in harmony and push for the number one bomb exporter spot by next Christmas.

 

[OutByEaster?]

I have a feeling that number one spot might be some distance away from us.

 

[chrisp65]

You've got to have a dream.

[OutByEaster?]

This remains a site that I find oddly addictive. 

https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts

Quote

Contracts valued at $7 million or more are announced each business day at 5 p.m. Go to DOD News for more information and for links to other news items.

The money that people make out of killing people is truly astounding - Monday was a good day, nearly $3 billion.

Sadly, I'm not sure they're quite so forthcoming about their export contracts.