Brumerican Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The bottom line is the rule of law, not holy writ. If the law says it's OK to offend somebody with so-called blasphemy, then it is, end of.There is a difference between blasphemy and racism.Yup , blasphemy is the epitome of a victimless crime. You cant offend something that is imaginary. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The bottom line is the rule of law, not holy writ. If the law says it's OK to offend somebody with so-called blasphemy, then it is, end of. What if the rule of law is binded by holy writ and those that blaspheme wind up dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momo Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) So, you don't think depicting all Muslims as suicide bombers is racist? I seem to remember Balotelli getting a game ban for anti-semitic cartoon. Where was the outcry for freedom of speech, and mocking every religion is legal. Being stigmatized for being good with money is apparently worse than being stigmatized for being a terrorist. Muslims aren't a race. To be fair I do think the FA are OTT about some of the things on Twitter. So, why do you talk about them as a HOMOGENEOUS group? And you don't need to be a race to experience racism. After all, all humans are of the same race. The bottom line is the rule of law, not holy writ. If the law says it's OK to offend somebody with so-called blasphemy, then it is, end of. There is a difference between blasphemy and racism. Yup , blasphemy is the epitome of a victimless crime. You cant offend something that is imaginary. In your opinion. Edited January 8, 2015 by momo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) But it's not in Islam. They way women are treated in Saudi for example is not in Islam. It is the people that are to blame. Muslim countries have had more women heads of state then non muslim countries for example. Islam gave women the right to an inheritance when no one else did. Gave Women ownership of their own property when it didn't exist anywhere else in the world. I could go on and on. Yes times have changed but these countries are oppressive to women because of their culture rather than religion, for the main. Mock it for all I care. I will be offended but I am not going to stop you doing it. It's not the religion that can't stand up to it, it is these random people who obviously have issues. If they actually followed their own religion then they would not do what they did. How can you blame Islam for that? Edited January 8, 2015 by omariqy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 So, you don't think depicting all Muslims as suicide bombers is racist? I seem to remember Balotelli getting a game ban for anti-semitic cartoon. Where was the outcry for freedom of speech, and mocking every religion is legal. Being stigmatized for being good with money is apparently worse than being stigmatized for being a terrorist. Muslims aren't a race. To be fair I do think the FA are OTT about some of the things on Twitter. So, why do you talk about them as a HOMOGENEOUS group? And you don't need to be a race to experience racism. After all, all humans are of the same race. Err yes you do. I don't know who has talked about Muslims as a homogeneous group (I haven't) but they're not homogeneous in terms of race. Saying all Muslims are suicide bombers is Islamophobic and prejudiced, but it's not racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Just my opinion, but the last few pages could probably be put into the religious thread? It seems to be moving quite far from the Paris Shootings. I just came to say I was sorry to see another Police Officer had been shot and killed today. They're calling it terrorism, but it does seem to be unlinked with the shootings of yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted January 8, 2015 Administrator Share Posted January 8, 2015 But it's not in Islam. They way women are treated in Saudi for example is not in Islam. It is the people that are to blame. Muslim countries have had more women heads of state then non muslim countries for example. Islam gave women the right to an inheritance when no one else did. Gave Women ownership of their own property when it didn't exist anywhere else in the world. I could go on and on. Yes times have changed but these countries are oppressive to women because of their culture rather than religion, for the main. As a muslim, what can you do to stop people hijacking your religion to their own ends? Christian leaders in Britain have been mocked for their positions on gay and other equality issues. The mocking serves to keep the conversation current and to highlight that they are out of touch with the people they claim to represent. How does a similar conversation happen in the muslim world? (serious question) I don't understand how you can have a popular (of the people) debate without being able to level any kind of criticism at the people you are debating with and that includes mockery. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Yeah sorry Lapal you are probably right. I quite like the discussion but not the right thread. It may have got lost in all the chat but there have been a number of shootings and explosions at Mosques around France. Things will get ugly I feel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momo Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 So, you don't think depicting all Muslims as suicide bombers is racist? I seem to remember Balotelli getting a game ban for anti-semitic cartoon. Where was the outcry for freedom of speech, and mocking every religion is legal. Being stigmatized for being good with money is apparently worse than being stigmatized for being a terrorist. Muslims aren't a race. To be fair I do think the FA are OTT about some of the things on Twitter. So, why do you talk about them as a HOMOGENEOUS group? And you don't need to be a race to experience racism. After all, all humans are of the same race. Err yes you do. I don't know who has talked about Muslims as a homogeneous group (I haven't) but they're not homogeneous in terms of race. Saying all Muslims are suicide bombers is Islamophobic and prejudiced, but it's not racist. I bet a read up on racism will change your opinion. Race is a social concept. Humans are all of the same race. Definitions of racism include discriminatory behaviors and beliefs based on cultural, national, ethnic, caste, or religious stereotypes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Limpid, very good question. I strongly believe that as a community we need to do more. Internally. Not condemning these attacks. That is just buttering up. It serves no purpose and we should not have to apologise for the actions of a few. However, the true answer is to work to unite different muslim countries together, put in place an education system that teaches the young the proper way of Islam, eradicate terrorism with swift punishment, establish a khilafah so that Muslims around the world have a proper direction and a strong leader. However this needs to be done in the right and proper manner. If it was done in the right manner trust me you would see a different Islam. Very importantly we need remove any oppressive regimes, teach youngsters about tolerating people of other faiths or even sects and the western countries need to leave Muslim lands. The US/UK needs to stop being the worlds police especially when it is as corrupt as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I bet a read up on racism will change your opinion. Race is a social concept. Humans are all of the same race. Definitions of racism include discriminatory behaviors and beliefs based on cultural, national, ethnic, caste, or religious stereotypes. Technically going by your definition almost any kind of prejudice or discrimination can be racism, which I think is a little ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted January 8, 2015 Administrator Share Posted January 8, 2015 Wouldn't it be better to teach children how to think, not what to think? But your answer is trying to push the problem to future generations. You've got more Muslims alive now that at any time in the past. How are they going to change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momo Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I bet a read up on racism will change your opinion. Race is a social concept. Humans are all of the same race. Definitions of racism include discriminatory behaviors and beliefs based on cultural, national, ethnic, caste, or religious stereotypes. Technically going by your definition almost any kind of prejudice or discrimination can be racism, which I think is a little ridiculous. It is not my definition, it is a general definition of racism. Tell me, what race are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 So, you don't think depicting all Muslims as suicide bombers is racist? I seem to remember Balotelli getting a game ban for anti-semitic cartoon. Where was the outcry for freedom of speech, and mocking every religion is legal. Being stigmatized for being good with money is apparently worse than being stigmatized for being a terrorist. Muslims aren't a race. To be fair I do think the FA are OTT about some of the things on Twitter. So, why do you talk about them as a HOMOGENEOUS group? And you don't need to be a race to experience racism. After all, all humans are of the same race. The bottom line is the rule of law, not holy writ. If the law says it's OK to offend somebody with so-called blasphemy, then it is, end of. There is a difference between blasphemy and racism. Yup , blasphemy is the epitome of a victimless crime. You cant offend something that is imaginary. In your opinion. Can you offend something that does not exist then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I bet a read up on racism will change your opinion. Race is a social concept. Humans are all of the same race. Definitions of racism include discriminatory behaviors and beliefs based on cultural, national, ethnic, caste, or religious stereotypes. Technically going by your definition almost any kind of prejudice or discrimination can be racism, which I think is a little ridiculous. It is not my definition, it is a general definition of racism. Tell me, what race are you? It's one definition - the law defines it differently. White British, that's what I put in the last census. Is it a social construct? Yes, but then so are most things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Remember we are talking about a tiny tiny minority here. How do you target this group of people? It's a very complex matter with various factors involved. It's very simple to see Muslims need to change and then everything will be alright. The West can carry on killing innocent civilians but as long as Muslims change themselves then everything will be alright? You destroy someone's home, kill their family and their country - what is that going to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 If it was Muslim countries doing what has been done to them. If Birmingham was destroyed and desecrated, your family killed in Solihull by some random foreign soldier. How do you think a tiny minority of people would react in England? #killallmuslims was trending yesterday on twitter for example. Unfortunately, as bad as it is and as wrong as it is, it is a very human reaction from a tiny minority. When I say human I don't mean justified, I mean a tiny minority of people have this evil thing in them and they will murder and seek revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 totally agree with Limpid - huge problem appears to be that the concept of satire is just too alien to too many (vocal) islamic elements ( perhaps particularly more so those who are more recent immigrants from different societies ), and satire is held with deserved reserverence as one of the most important qualities a progressive society can hold - the ability to comment, criticise mock and provoke internal self-reflection about contemporary values in a particular group. Opposing that, simply ensures stasis or even regression. It hasn't always been like that either to be fair which makes it all the more confusing. So the issue about those taking offence is not so much the taking the offence, it's the suggestion that the satires in whatever form are irresponsible or intolerant, which troublingly indicates an effort to deflect responsibility and claim a victim status for beliefs not being respected. The request for it to stop indicates a concerning lack of appreciation of the broader environment they are living in - a problem also facing the fundamentalist christian types too, and sikhs as well ( the play in the temple hoohar springs to mind). It's difficult when the freedom to complain and the request for people not to do this are problematically close. If you're offended - ok, be offended, but to ask for religious belief to be held at a level beyond other political concerns, is to mis-understand what it is to live in secular West. That is a broad statement I know and there are many idiot judeo-christian citizens who dont understand it either, anytime they ask for ludicrous laws against anything they don't like, the same ignorance is on display, but always with far less violence and it is that degree of violence that separates the communities. Now, how far those attitudes are prevalent in muslim communities, I confess I really don't know - I am just going by the comments and reactions seen here and elsewhere. Perhaps it's an overblown concern, but just another point 'looking in' from the outside. Tough to alter really, but I don't know what solutions are available and can't help but see a problem located in doctine-inspired mindset that provides such fertile ground for such aggressive stand-points. If you're inculcated at a young age that option a is amazing, the focus of your entire soul's journey should be to respect and achieve x, y, z and that object b is worthy of so much hallowed attention and worship, it's not surprising that the reaction to those who mock this is going to be all the more stronger. The terminology plays a major factor in that. Aside from a common sense relaxing and updating of the text to re-write passages with much calmer language it's tough to challenge I suppose, but who knows. I hope something happens. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 put in place an education system that teaches the young the proper way of Islam, Sunni or Shia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) If it was Muslim countries doing what has been done to them. If Birmingham was destroyed and desecrated, your family killed in Solihull by some random foreign soldier. How do you think a tiny minority of people would react in England? #killallmuslims was trending yesterday on twitter for example. Unfortunately, as bad as it is and as wrong as it is, it is a very human reaction from a tiny minority. When I say human I don't mean justified, I mean a tiny minority of people have this evil thing in them and they will murder and seek revenge. This doesn't really make sense in the context of the attack on Charlie Hebdo though. Edited January 8, 2015 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts