The ISIS threat to Europe

[Risso]

Also you forget what is happening in Muslim lands. Many people, daily, are seeing their homes destroyed, loved ones injured or destroyed and their countries ruined. It is naiive to think that there won't be an impact on the back of the West's interference and warfare in the middle east. In my eyes it is more political than religious. Many of the individuals who commit such acts tend to have a very basic knowledge of Islam and rely on an authority figure for their education. An authority figure who himself is probably mentally ill. They may commit such acts in the name of Islam but it is almost always in response to something political. You just have to look at the people responsible for 9/11 to see what they got up to before they committed the attack.

I can understand people in Iraq taking up arms against the west. But people from the UK are going off to fight in their droves despite not being affected directly themselves. The only connection is the brainwashing effect of Islam, which as a religion isn't on all fours with freedom of speech. As a youngster, I worked in a bookshop that sold The Satanic Verses. We got all sorts of anonymous threats from people saying they were going to burn the shop down, and other pleasant ideas.

[Awol]

And it continues to grow. Alhamdulillah.

I think I understand the sentiment here (and please correct me if I'm wrong) in that followers of Islam wish to see the whole word living as one huge Ummah under divine Sharia law, hence the 'thanks be to God' comment about the growth/spread of your faith.

With that in mind would you like to see the UK incorporated into the Islamic world? This is not a loaded question I'm just very interested in your response as a clearly moderate guy.

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"What is happening in Muslim lands"

There is a millennia old fight going on between the agents of two competiting sides of the same coin, that would exist whether the west had invaded Iraq or whether Israel existed, and would even exist albeit in less aggressive form if KSA wasn't sat on billions of hydrocarbons.

[mjmooney]

Also you forget what is happening in Muslim lands. Many people, daily, are seeing their homes destroyed, loved ones injured or destroyed and their countries ruined. It is naiive to think that there won't be an impact on the back of the West's interference and warfare in the middle east. In my eyes it is more political than religious. Many of the individuals who commit such acts tend to have a very basic knowledge of Islam and rely on an authority figure for their education. An authority figure who himself is probably mentally ill. They may commit such acts in the name of Islam but it is almost always in response to something political. You just have to look at the people responsible for 9/11 to see what they got up to before they committed the attack.

No-one's forgetting that, Omar, it's acknowledged.

But there is clearly a powerful jihadist movement which is dedicated to seizing power, imposing strict Sharia law and rolling the democratic/progressive clock back right across the middle east, quite independent of western involvement. You could argue that this is none of our business, but my sympathies are with the likes of Malala Yusafzai. That sort of barbarity has NOTHING to do with Britain, France or the USA.

Edited January 8, 2015 by mjmooney

[peterms]

 

 

I don't get it. This is wrong in so many levels. These three terrorists did not drop from the sky. No warlock conjured them out of nowhere. They lived and prospered as a part of a group, a faction. This group or faction needs to be condemned and wiped clean. Not because of Islam - but because they see Islam as an excuse to take other people's lives. It's that simple.

 

Well, no doubt we will know more about the attackers before too long.  Early accounts - and these things often change a lot in these situations, as some misinformation is always present - suggest that one of them at least was radicalised by the Iraq war and things like Abu Ghraib.  There will be thousands more like that, and intelligence chiefs among others have pointed out that it's an inevitable consequence of invasive wars and torture.  It is also suggested that he has been in Syria, training with the insurgents who were encouraged, supported, funded and armed by the US.

 

The cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo may have been the excuse or the immediate focus of his actions (and the cartoonists were of course a much softer target than others), but I seriously question whether these things can be understood without the wider context of the anger and alienation which seems to have existed.  To imagine that it's simply religious outrage at cartoons, and no more, seems naive.

 

If both the motivation and the capability for these acts derives at least in part from US actions, perhaps it's just a little bit too simplistic to say "it's Islam".

 

 

It is Islam though.  Without that connection, what possible reason would people from the UK or France have to join ISIS or start shooting innocent people?

 

 

Why weren't they doing it twenty years ago?  Thirty?  Islam was there then.  What changed?

 

To identify as the cause the factor which was there both before and after this phenomenon, rather than newer factors, seems perverse.

 

Yes, Islam can lend a veneer of justification to people involved in these things, same as when priests were blessing bomber crews before they set off to bomb the shit out of German civilians, or rabbis endorsing IDF death squads before their raids in Gaza.

[omariqy]

And it continues to grow. Alhamdulillah.

I think I understand the sentiment here (and please correct me if I'm wrong) in that followers of Islam wish to see the whole word living as one huge Ummah under divine Sharia law, hence the 'thanks be to God' comment about the growth/spread of your faith.

With that in mind would you like to see the UK incorporated into the Islamic world? This is not a loaded question I'm just very interested in your response as a clearly moderate guy.

Not at all. I don't want Shariah law for any non Muslim country. Only for the Muslim countries to sort their own shit out and be United. My comment is more that Islam continues to grow despite what is going on. A lot of these converts and reverts are very knowledgeable too and practice in the right way rather than the terrorist converts you see in the media. Obviously population growth in Muslim countries has a lot to do with it too.

[omariqy]

There are lots of issues in the muslim countries independent on the involvement of the West.  There is no unity.  When an atrocity happens to a Muslim country ever Muslim is hurt as they see that person as a brother or sister.  However, every other time they are at each others throats.  They care more about nationality or culture or caste.  You only have to look at how racist a lot of Arabs are to workers from Pakistan or Africa.  It's in a very sorry state.  What they need is direction, structure, an educational system that teaches them the right things about Islam and how to behave and strong leaders who they can look up to. Not nutjobs.

[mjmooney]

And it continues to grow. Alhamdulillah.

I think I understand the sentiment here (and please correct me if I'm wrong) in that followers of Islam wish to see the whole word living as one huge Ummah under divine Sharia law, hence the 'thanks be to God' comment about the growth/spread of your faith.

With that in mind would you like to see the UK incorporated into the Islamic world? This is not a loaded question I'm just very interested in your response as a clearly moderate guy.

Not at all. I don't want Shariah law for any non Muslim country. Only for the Muslim countries to sort their own shit out and be United. My comment is more that Islam continues to grow despite what is going on. A lot of these converts and reverts are very knowledgeable too and practice in the right way rather than the terrorist converts you see in the media. Obviously population growth in Muslim countries has a lot to do with it too.

But what is a 'Muslim country'? Is it like a 'Muslim baby'?

There should be freedom of religion, without fear of coercion, for ALL individuals, in ALL countries.

Theology has no business in the government of a country, be it Pakistan or the UK.

[useless]

Sorry if this is a stupid question or insensitive but is there a reason why this seems to be getting bigger reaction than the Pakistan school shooting from last month? Or is it just because this is closer to home and people have become desensitised to this kind of thing happening in certain regions.

[Rodders]

a bit of both, the shock is always magnified in areas where it's unexpected. As the joke goes:

 

Telegraph:

Underwater bomb devastates marine habitat.

No Britons killed.

[momo]

 

Three and half years ago, the far-right Norwegian terrorist Anders Breivik bombed Oslo, and then gunned down dozens of young people on the island of Utøya. His rationalisation for the atrocity was to stop the “Islamisation” of Norway: that the Norwegian left had opened the country’s doors to Muslims and diluted its Christian heritage. But Norway’s response was not retribution, revenge, clampdowns. “Our response is more democracy, more openness, and more humanity,”declared the prime minister Jens Stoltenberg. When Breivik was put on trial, Norway played it by the book. The backlash he surely craved never came.

 

Here’s how the murderers who despicably gunned down the journalists and cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo do not want us to respond. Vengeance and hatred directed at Muslims as a whole serves Islamic fundamentalists well. They want Muslims to feel hated, targeted and discriminated against, because it increases the potential well of support for their cause. Already, there are multiple reports of attacks in France against mosques, and even a “criminal explosion” in a kebab shop. These are not just disgraceful, hateful acts. Those responsible are sticking to the script of the perpetrators. They are themselves de facto recruiting sergeants for terrorists.

Social media abounds with Islamophobes seizing this atrocity to advance their hatred. Islam as an entire religion is responsible, they cry: it is incompatible with “western values”. They wish to homogenise Muslims, as though Malala and Mo Farah have anything in common with the sectarian murderers of Isis. Most victims of Islamic extremists are of course themselves Muslims: including Ahmed Merabet, the French police officer killed at close range by the terrorists in Paris yesterday.

This is a dangerous moment. Anti-Muslim prejudice is rampant in Europe. The favoured target of Europe’s far-right – like France’s Front National, which currently leads in the opinion polls – is Muslims. France is home to around 5 million Muslims, who disproportionately live in poverty and unemployment, often in ghettoised banlieues. This incident should rightfully horrify, but it will now undoubtedly fuel an already ascendant far-right.

The consequences? More anti-Muslim hatred, more disillusionment among already marginalised young Muslims, more potential recruits for extremist groups.

There is a choice, of course. Norway’s enlightened response could be a model elsewhere in Europe too. It would be the last thing the attackers would want us to do. That, in itself, should give us all pause to think.

Link

[peterms]

Sorry if this is a stupid question or insensitive but is there a reason why this seems to be getting bigger reaction than the Pakistan school shooting from last month? Or is it just because this is closer to home and people have become desensitised to this kind of thing happening in certain regions.

 

Both of those reasons.  Also I'm sure the ease of access for media makes a big difference, and of course those reporting on it will naturally identify very closely with those killed, as fellow jourmalists.  Perhaps also more of a shock factor.

[omariqy]

Risso it is the same reason why some Jewish people in the UK have gone to fight for the IDF.  They see themselves as one nation.  Rightly or wrongly.

 

My issue with this freedom of speech argument is the hypocrisy of it all.  For example the French cartoonist who is on trial on charges of anti Semitism over his Sarkozy jibe.    The Al Jazeera journalist Abduellah Haider Shaye incarcerated in Yemen at the behest of America for reporting the wrong type of facts.  Assange.  Spying on people.  Tapping phones.  I could go on. 

 

Personally I don't see the need to abuse, demonise, mock a people based on their beliefs unless it is harmful.  There's freedom to share your opinion and there is just being inflammatory.  What good is it to mock the Prophet of a nation. Especially one that holds that individual in such high regard and is loved.  By all means mock the politics of that nation or ISIS or whatever.  By mocking the Prophet you are just going to cause offense and distress to people.  Personally I don't get it.

 

Just today there have been a number of shootings/grenades/explosions aimed at Mosques in Paris.

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What if you consider religion to be harmful?

 

I am sure plenty of Christians love Jesus etc, but why should poking fun at the fanciful notion of him performing miracles and so on be free from mockery?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYfXSohvvuI

Edited January 8, 2015 by Ads

[BG_Villa_Fan]

 

Personally I don't see the need to abuse, demonise, mock a people based on their beliefs unless it is harmful.  There's freedom to share your opinion and there is just being inflammatory.  What good is it to mock the Prophet of a nation. Especially one that holds that individual in such high regard and is loved.  By all means mock the politics of that nation or ISIS or whatever.  By mocking the Prophet you are just going to cause offense and distress to people.  Personally I don't get it.

 

Just today there have been a number of shootings/grenades/explosions aimed at Mosques in Paris.

 

By all means be offended by this, mock it, never read or buy such newspapers, tell friends they suck, etc. Shoot them? No...

[omariqy]

Obviously I am not condoning shooting.  It is totally abhorrent and wrong.  Whatever my view on such cartoons.  The response should be met measured and sensible. 

[villa89]

By mocking the Prophet you are just going to cause offense and distress to people. 

 

The point is that if you are the type of person that gets offending by a drawing of Mohammed in a Danish newspaper (for example) then it's you that needs to take a look at yourself in the mirror and question your own beliefs and values as (IMO) you are clearly gone down the line of forcing your views and values on other people. Jesus Christ, Jews etc. get mocked continuously and that (IMO) has helped ease the fundamentalism that used to be rife in those religions.

 

50 years ago in Ireland the church ran everything and nobody could question them. Dissenting voices, comedians, the pushing of boundaries, offending the fundamentalist lunatics all helped to free the country from the oppression of Catholicism and the country is 1,000,000 times better off for it. Fundamentalism and Oppression are the dark heart of religion and the moderates and 'PC brigade' are what allow them to flourish.

Edited January 8, 2015 by villa89

[maqroll]

 

The problem for me with Islam is that just as the UK is finally becoming much less religious in terms of its historic connection with christianity, there's a religion on the block that is all encompassing in the lives of most of its followers. To see that somebody couldn't even type the word "Mohammed" on here without feeling required to add "pbuh" after it showed just how ingrained in people it is.

That is certainly a problem. In the UK at any rate, even most of the practicing Christians tend to be very liberal in their interpretation of their faith. There are very, very few Bible literalist/creationist types. And most of them would describe themselves as tolerant of other faiths, Islam included. But what they really mean is that they expect Muslims to of a similar liberal stripe to themselves, the sort that maybe have a copy of the Qu'ran in the house, but probably don't attend the mosque, do wear western clothes, etc. - what I call "C of E Muslims".

But seeing women covered from head to toe, work colleagues needing areas where they can pray several times a day, and so on, runs massively counter to the secularising trend of the last fifty or even hundred years. They are uncomfortable with it. Frankly, I am too; I find it deeply depressing.

 

Three flights from NYC to Tel Aviv within the last two months have been delayed from takeoff, one as long as 12 hours because Hasidic men refused to sit next to women. Incredible. They should have been arrested on the spot. If they were Muslim, I bet they would have been. If you want to live in a Western country, you must adhere to it's laws and norms. If you refuse to do so on religious grounds, you should either be deported (if you have dual citizenship) or fined and jailed. 

 

That's what makes yesterday's massacre so egregious. It was an affront to core Western values of freedom of the press and free speech. If the killers are French citizens, it is doubly distressing, because they will have completely rejected those basic values in favor of a stupid fairy tale.

[sheepyvillian]

In an attempt to put things in perspective , I feel for ordinary , decent muslims' , because trust me , they're plenty out there .

[omariqy]

Villa89 who do you love and cherish the most in this life? If they were abused, mocked and humiliated would you not be offended.  If you don't believe in God or don't like Religion then obviously none of it will make sense to you because you believe that we believe in some sky fairy and fairytale.  You can feel offended and hurt without responding in a negative way.

Edited January 8, 2015 by omariqy