BOF Posted June 15, 2007 Moderator Share Posted June 15, 2007 Edit: Technically, by your rules, every person on the planet should be agnostic. Silly really. No. I believe every Atheist should be an Agnostic. As an Athiest I am saying that without a doubt there is no "god" that created everything in the universe Which is funny as regarding how the world was made, science can bring very little. Energy for once. Laws of physics. How did something get created out of nothing? Im trying to riducule you or anyone, i just find it strange that you deny the presence of something which could be possible, and according to a lot of theories likely. Be a bit broadminded etc. Hopefully CERN will bring us closer to those answers in November with their 'big bang' experiment that has been 20 years in the making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 No. I believe every Atheist should be an Agnostic. Ha! You have as much proof of a god existing as we do of one not existing, so while I believe everyone should believe what they want to believe, if an Athiest should be agnostic because they can't prove there is no god, then a religious person surely would also have to be agnostic because they can't prove there is. Your arguement is ridiculous TRL, i'm sorry. As an Athiest I am saying that without a doubt there is no "god" that created everything in the universe Which is funny as regarding how the world was made, science can bring very little. Energy for once. Laws of physics. How did something get created out of nothing? Im trying to riducule you or anyone, i just find it strange that you deny the presence of something which could be possible, and according to a lot of theories likely. Be a bit broadminded etc. What created God then? Whatever you can say that was "created out of nothing" by God, something must have created God. The "he has always been" arguement is a ridiculous cop out as well, and is used purely because religious people have no answer for the question of where God came from. Instead of looking for answers for the mysteries of the universe, you are simply deciding that God did it. But you can never tell me where God came from. Considering all the insanely complex things about this universe, for God to have created them he must be even more complex. Something must have created him if he exists. Give me a realistic answer to that and i'll go to church every sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 What created God then? Graham Taylor IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 What created God then? Graham Taylor IIRC. Or Mr and Mrs McGrath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 You have as much proof of a god existing as we do of one not existing, Which is the point. Thanks. then a religious person surely would also have to be agnostic because they can't prove there is. Difference is that religous people backup their arguements and beliefs by holy scripture and events. They believe it is a fact, their beliefs can be backed up by this. As an Atheist you deny the possibility for something to be real, without any evidence or support to back it up. You dont bring an alternative view either, you just refuse to accept creationisme. When in fact you should accept you dont know. Which is why you should head towards beeing an agnostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 You have as much proof of a god existing as we do of one not existing, Which is the point. Thanks. then a religious person surely would also have to be agnostic because they can't prove there is. Difference is that religous people backup their arguements and beliefs by holy scripture and events. They believe it is a fact, their beliefs can be backed up by this. As an Atheist you deny the possibility for something to be real, without any evidence or support to back it up. You dont bring an alternative view either, you just refuse to accept creationisme. When in fact you should accept you dont know. Which is why you should head towards beeing an agnostic. I'd say the complete lack of any real evidence of the existance of God is all the evidence Athiests need. You are relying on books full of hearsay and conjecture, probable exaggeration and fairy stories, all written thousands of years ago. A virgin birth? A man turning water into wine? Two of every single animal on Earth living on a boat? Fairy stories. And there is absolutely no proof they are anything more than that. Jesus certainly lived, and he certainly believed he was the son of god, but my Mum works in Mental Health, and has met tons of patients who believe they are the son of god. How is Jesus different? The bible is no proof, and if anything hurts the credibility of people who claim there is a God. It is much easier to prove beyond doubt that something exists, than to prove beyond doubt that something doesnt exist. And there is nothing that even comes close to proof that God exists. Athiests don't need evidence to disprove God, the lack of proof that he does exist is all the evidence we need. That said, my policy is that everyone should believe whatever they want to believe. My girlfriend is christian and I would not wish her not to be because it's a great part of who she is. I simply don't share her beliefs, not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Sorry, I missed part of your post. The popular alternative to creationism is evolution, which has yet to be disproved and pretty much explains everything that lives. The origin of life was a lucky chemical reaction. An extremely lucky one. There are many theories as to the origin of the universe, the big bang being the most popular one. There are heaps of alternative theories to creationism. Rather than just accepting that "God did it", i'd prefer science keep trying to discover the mysteries of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Not that I'm particularly interested in this thread as I'm not very religious, but it's spelt 'Sikh', not 'Seikh' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkr Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Checking the votes (yes i know its a small selection of fans) there are villa fans of every belief except for Jews, which is some what surprising considering our very own owner is Jewish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Rather than just accepting that "God did it", i'd prefer science keep trying to discover the mysteries of the universe. Oh absolutely. I'm a firm believer in Evolution and the Big Bang theory as scientific events that explain how we've come to be. Yet neither of them explain why. Science can prove a hell of a lot beyond reasonable doubt. But then there are things that cannot be measured and explained. IMO of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 15, 2007 VT Supporter Share Posted June 15, 2007 How can you actually defend beeing an atheist? It's quite simple I'd imagine. You don't believe in God. So you are saying there are no God whatsoever. When in fact, you dont know? Here we go again. Proof doesn't come into it. I don't KNOW that there isn't a giant invisible pink teapot orbiting the Earth, I can't PROVE that there isn't. But based on the available evidence, and using my own intelligence, I conclude that there isn't. Same with God. Being an atheist doesn't mean "I have incontrovertible proof that God does not exist". It means "I do NOT have any incontrovertible proof that he does. Therefore I DO NOT BELIEVE that he exists". It says nothing about what I DO believe (that is a pretty big area of science). But shouldnt you be so humble to realise that there is a chance a God can exist? For after all, you dont know? But seriously, you have no proof he does exist, but you cant deny the fact that he/she may very well exist. Then why should you support a belief which denies the possibility of a greater force. You should be an agnostic. True, I can't deny the "fact" that he/she may very well exist. Just as I can't deny the "fact" that a giant invisible pink orbiting teapot may very well exist. Read my lips: I don't deny the (infinitely small) possibility of God's existence. But I DON'T BELIEVE IT. That is what "atheist" MEANS. A-theist, not a believer. Sheesh! (orig: "Jesus"). An agnostic is someone DOES believe that there is SOME likelihood of God's existence, without subscribing to any particular creed, or denying the possibility of there being no God at all. To put it another way: sure, nobody can realistically be 100% atheist (even Richard Dawkins acknowledges this in what I think of as "The Good Book" ). But an atheist is probably 99:1, whereas an agnostic is closer to 50:50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 15, 2007 VT Supporter Share Posted June 15, 2007 I'm a firm believer in Evolution and the Big Bang theory as scientific events that explain how we've come to be. Yet neither of them explain why. Ah, The Cosmic Anthropic Principle. Our problem as a species is that it has been evolutionarily advantageous for us to appreciate the principle of cause-and-effect. If I hit the animal on the head with a rock it will die, and I can eat it. The trouble is that we have become fixated on cause-and-effect. If we cannot understand "why" something happens, our minds still have this overwhelming urge to supply a reason. If we can see no obvious "scientific" reason, we jump to the conclusion that it may have been caused by a supernatural being. This is the phenomenon that evolutionary biologists like Dawkins call "the god of the gaps". But while cause-and-effect is a good working approach to things IN the universe (without going into the paradoxes of quantum theory), it may be the case that cause-and-effect does not apply - indeed CANNOT apply - to the "universe"; the universe is not a "thing", it is the environment in which all things - and processes (such as cause-and effect) - exist. That's my take on it, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 8 pages again on religion. Which is precisely why i hate religion. Another reason to divide people. Not 1 person on this planet, knows whats going to happen after death, yet people can have arguments for hours, days, weeks and years. Is there a God, isn't there a God, i dont know, you dont know. There are many things in this universe unexplainable, most of which our human brain will be unable to understand, so why bother. Strap yourself in and enjoy the ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity-Tom Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 I chatted to a mate of mine a while ago about evolution as he was a researching biologist and he asserts that whilst evolution explains some things, there are many gaps in that theory to. My point - all theories have gaps, thats why they aren't facts and I agree that if TRL thinks people should be agnostic because they can't disprove that a god exists then all religious people should be too as scriptures such as those in the Bible really add very little weight to anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 15, 2007 VT Supporter Share Posted June 15, 2007 To be scrupulously accurate: I referred in my previous post to the Cosmic Anthropic Principle. What I then went on to talk about was, strictly speaking nothing to do with the CAP - except indirectly. If I understand it correctly (and it's quite possible that I don't), the CAP is concerned with the - apparently - curious fact that our universe has laws which are "fine-tuned" to a the very narrow band of conditions which allow the existence of life. This is seen by some as "proof" of divine creation. The counter-argument is that - given the fact that we exist, and can observe it - how could it be otherwise? There may well have been/are/will be "other" universes that cannot support life. Naturally, nobody will be there to recognise the fact (if a tree falls in a forest and nobody hears it, does it make a sound?, etc.). In other words - we're here because we're here, because we're here, because we're here (and so on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 15, 2007 VT Supporter Share Posted June 15, 2007 I chatted to a mate of mine a while ago about evolution as he was a researching biologist and he asserts that whilst evolution explains some things, there are many gaps in that theory to. My point - all theories have gaps, thats why they aren't facts and I agree that if TRL thinks people should be agnostic because they can't disprove that a god exists then all religious people should be too as scriptures such as those in the Bible really add very little weight to anything. There's that God of the Gaps, again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 Well, the thread hasnt died on its arse yet, and ive still not came out as one of three Muslims who have voted so far (the username is a Black Grape reference btw) I was agnostic for years. Through people ive met and experiences ive had the three Abrahamic religions (thats the three that recognise Abraham and Moses, ie Judaism, Christianity and Islam) were just screaming out as really having something to them. I guess its a common ignorance, but on its very basic level Judaism is the old testament, Christianity is the new testament and Islam is what happened following Jesus's death. Muslims believe in Jesus, the story of Joseph is in all three holy texts as well as being a west end musical and tv talent show. All this is screaming to me that perhaps if these three massive groups of people who have spent pretty much eternity kicking the shit out of each other basically agree on one ultimate truth, well, there has to be something in it. Im not arrogant enough to think that man can explain everything that happens on this planet, after all most people accept that their pet cat will never understand how nuclear fusion works and the gold fish will never bang out a tune on the piano. Why should our species be able to fathom everything? And does the advance of explaining thing scientifically move man away from the search for the sublime? Could evolution not be gods will? I find it shocking that so many people can say they are 100% convinced there is nothing more to this life than meets the eye. Im sure a lot of you wouldnt mean it if push comes to shove. I guess most people will reach a point in their life where they ask the question why they are here. For me it was when my girl was born. I guess that means i could find a little time to mull things over. The monolithic "one god" thing makes the most sense to me, and without doubt the Islamic interpretation of that seems to have the fewest holes in it. You can rip Christianity to bits, but the Koran still exists as it did the day it arrived. Ill not descend into the culture or politics that comes with religion, im trying my hardest to avoid that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity-Tom Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Agreed. I do believe in a "force" of some description but I'm not sure what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 15, 2007 VT Supporter Share Posted June 15, 2007 All this is screaming to me that perhaps if these three massive groups of people who have spent pretty much eternity kicking the shit out of each other basically agree on one ultimate truth, well, there has to be something in it. Why? There was a time in human history when virtually everybody believed that the Earth was flat and that the sun went around the Earth. In my experience there are three main reasons why people subscribe to a particular religion: (a) Cultural - I believe in (x) because that's the way I was brought up. I feel comfortable with the rituals, my family and friends share the same traditions. My beliefs are reinforced by my teachers and holy men. My religion is a part of what I am. (I suspect that this is the most common reason). ( Intellectual - I believe in (x) because it seems to make logical sense to me. There has to be a reason for the way things are. I look around me and see intelligent design. The atheist arguments don't satisfy or "ring true". We need a reason for our ethical codes. There HAS to be a God. (This one can obviously be combined with (a), or apply to someone who grew up in a different - or no - religion). © Revelatory - I believe in (x) because I have had a profound experience. God spoke to me directly and the Holy Spirit entered into my soul. My life has changed and I feel that I have been born again. (Again, may or may not be combined with (a) or ( or both). Personally, I don't believe in God, because none of the above applies. My parents were half-hearted non-churchgoing Christians, my education taught Christianity as part of the syllabus. I accepted it until I started to think seriously about philosophical matters. The more I ponder the intellectual arguments, the more I reject religion for atheism. And it's pretty obvious I've never had the epiphany experience. As a historian, I do find the social phenomenon of religion fascinating though. It has been a major component of most human cultures for millennia, and will probably remain so for many years to come. Don't make it right, though, any more than the flat Earth business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 15, 2007 VT Supporter Share Posted June 15, 2007 Agreed. I do believe in a "force" of some description but I'm not sure what it is. That'll be gravity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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