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Tactics - what, why, how?


Dodgyknees

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I think our general tactics (I have no idea about the methods used in training, unlike many others) are fine to an extent but might not fully play to the "strengths" of the squad.  The biggest problem for me is that we don't have creative, attacking players.  Gabby, Weimann and N'Zogbia all do the odd thing well enough, but are nowhere near being creative enough - let alone consistent enough.

 

If we had, say, Stewart Downing and Ashley Young playing in those wide/wing forward areas instead of any combination of the above 3, I think we'd be a much better side.  Instead, we lack true quality in the final third.  As sexbelowsound hints, why haven't we really tried out a 4-4-2 or, hell, a 5-3-2?  If we don't have the creativity up there and we want to play counter-attacking football, double up on the attackers.  There are huge periods of games where our sole striker is completely isolated - which I doubt helps with concentration et al either.

 

Another huge concern of mine is that we don't use the ball well enough when we have it.  It's fine to be a counter-attacking team (lots of clubs play in that manner), but if you're rarely effective with the ball then it becomes a tremendous burden on the defence and a major problem overall.  I guess it might tie in with the Gabby/Weimann/N'Zogbia trio - some pace, some workrate but a distinct lack of skill - it might be a training ground issue but, whatever the cause, it certainly needs addressing quickly.

 

 

I think this is a first for me but hey ho credit where it's due--- Good post Bobzy!

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As utterly ludicrous as it sounds, we might be as well playing with nobody up front and playing a 4-6-0. At least then there'll be nobody to attempt the hoof to and they might be forced to actually play expansive football 

Edited by P3te
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----------------Guzan

Hutton Senderos Vlaar Cissokho

Lowton Cleverly Sanchez Grealish

------------------N'zogbia

--------------------Benteke

With Delph in for N'zogbia when he's fit and then switching to 4-1-4-1 with Sanchez holding.
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Very old style counter attacking is Lamberts tactics. I imagine other managers study our play and find us easy to break down, as we never change our style. We have no threat up top, no creativity, although I do think after nealy 3 seasons he could have coached a forward into being a little more creative. You never really see him chnage us tactically half way through a game if its not working, although I guess he did at Bradford and I guess that scared him for life.

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Counter Attacking would have been a decent tactic vs QPR IF it wasn't so obvious that we'd do it (because we always do).

 

I could forgive Lambert for approaching the game in that fashion. 

 

However, once it became clear that QPR were happy for us to have the ball and counter attacking wasn't going to happen, things should have changed.

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I think we are too one dimensional, it appears the same tactics and formation regardless who we are playing. The middle quincunx is not fluid enough. It may have worked at Agincourt and Cressy but it doesn't appear to work in the premier league. 

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Our defensive tactics seem fine most of the time. Our biggest problem is how we attack. There's no idea. We don't change against any opposition. We have no pattern of play. Lambert seems to pick his attackers based on their defensive attributes.

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If we're planning to 'mix it up', I'd like to see Bacuna played in a forward/wide role. Technically, he's not great, but he's strong, quick, full of stamina and we know he can score goals. 4-2-3-1: Guzan, Lowton, Vlaar, Senderos, Cissokho, Westwood, Sanchez, N'Zogbia, Bacuna, Cleverley (AMC), Benteke

F*** it. Drop gabby and Andy and play Zog off Benteke.

Playing with ten men is not the answer, but you're thinking outside the box! Edited by Rob182
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Counter Attacking would have been a decent tactic vs QPR IF it wasn't so obvious that we'd do it (because we always do).

 

I could forgive Lambert for approaching the game in that fashion. 

 

However, once it became clear that QPR were happy for us to have the ball and counter attacking wasn't going to happen, things should have changed.

 

 

This is bang on for me..  Teams are sat there waiting for us to counter attack now as you cannot counter attack a team that's sitting waiting for it!.. It's just so easy for them as is being proven with recent results.

 

The problem is that the counter attack is our only threat. The only chance we have is when a team goes for our jugular and even then we fluff 90% of the situations which come our way hence only 4 goals. It's not just the poor finishing, which is poor, but also the bizarre decision making when in really good positions... and it never seems to improve which i find just odd!? 

 

The other problem is we have not got the slightest clue how to break a team down through normal play, our players are clearly just either

a) Poorly coached

B) Don't follow instructions

c) Completely incapable.

 

Now i cannot see how they could be not following instructions over 3 seasons else they surely wouldn't be playing week in week out at all and when we buy new players they just start doing the exact same things!..... So that leaves the "totally incapable" or "poorly coached" options. I cannot see how the are totally incapable as we have seen these players do better before, either at Villa or for other clubs, CNZ was good at Wigan, Gabby has been lethal for us under MON, Weimann was doing great for a while & Cleverley was a decent player under Fergie, etc etc  which leaves only one thing.... the coaching! The easiest way to prove this to me is to look at Benteke...His 1st season was phenominal, his second poor by comparison & so far this season... well we can't really say but should he really be getting his fitness back in the first team just yet making us effectively toothless? I'm not so sure.

 

So for me nothing will change unless the coaches/management changes.

 

I think the results clearly show it isn't even remotely close to working. As for the early season i think we just came in a bit fitter and sharper than most from a good pre season preparation fitness wise but now teams are up to speed that advantage has long since disappeared and it's back to the norm... With the exception that the big teams like Man City & Chelsea have sussed us now too so we are losing the type of games which kept us up last season now too!! 

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another problem we have imo is that the team philosophy is built too much around accomodating Gabby

 

When Gabby is on his game ( which is getting less frequent) we are half decent.... when he isn't which is more frequent of late.... we flounder.

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another problem we have imo is that the team philosophy is built too much around accomodating Gabby

 

When Gabby is on his game ( which is getting less frequent) we are half decent.... when he isn't which is more frequent of late.... we flounder.

Totally agree TRO. The trouble with Gabby is being a dyed in the wool Villa fan is not a reason be be selected every week. OK he is often played out of his best position but he is poor wherever he gets played these days. He is a very far cry from where he was a few years ago. It seems to me the only reason he starts is lack of other options, at least in Lambert's opinion.

Edited by Harry
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I was genuinely shocked we let Albrighton go and kept Gardener, then signed three more central midfielders.

 

Plus we loaned out Tonev who was traditionally a wide player. Now even if you hate or don't rate Tonev or Albrighton you'd still think we'd look to buy in some width.

 

Robinson and Grealish we're clearly not in Lambert's first team plans, other than a few cameos. Gabby and Weimann have not been affective in wide positions for a long time.

 

so it feels to me like Lambert was hoping Zog would come good and Cissokho and Hutton would play as wing backs. The latter kind of happened but as soon as teams saw that our only wide threat was from those two players with little or no overlap then that attack was snuffed out easily.

 

I would argue that Villa have looked at their best when a wing back/full back can feed or provide overlapping support to winger/wide midfielder. We don't do that anymore.

 

I think we have to try and get Zog and Bacuna in the side again, not saying either will make a big improvement but they are about all we have that can change things up a little.

Edited by VillanousOne
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Right, I now have a little time to explain where I think we struggle.

 

I have drawn a little diagram (my version of a heat map, it's call a cold diagram), and it looks at what I see with my own eyes.

 

We set up as a 4-3-3 formation, for this I am ignoring Guzan.

 

Striker: Benteke

 

Wide: Agbonlahor, Weimann

 

Midfield: Cleverley, Westwood.

 

Deep: Sanchez

 

Wing backs: Cissokho, Hutton.

 

Defenders: Vlaar, Senderos.

 

o711c2.png

 

I think the aim is to keep us compact, give us players who will work hard down the flanks - and wing backs who can get forward to double team the full backs on the other team.

 

The problem is, we have wing backs who get forward and wingers (so to speak) who come narrow to get closer to the box - which is their instinct.

 

At this point the midfield duo (depending on who it is) are both sitting in and playing passes in a very narrow area, which also includes Benteke, Agbonlahor and Wiemann.

 

Gabby is at his best when running at defenders, he cannot get through the middle as there are too many players in the way - and passing to him to get him in behind the defence is awkward as there are too many players covering the area. As well as our players we have the defenders of the opposition (and two deep midfielders), as can be seen - this is exactly where our attacks break down.

 

This is also why Weimann struggles to get much from the ball, and why Gabby cannot get many touches of the ball.

 

All teams now have to do is let Benteke win headers, which end up with nobody as there is no space, no room for anybody to assist him and no chance of him bringing others into play, leaving the big man frustrated and moving deeper to have an impact.

 

This just adds to the problems.

 

Black arrows: Where players move from.

Claret: Where they move when with the ball.

 

 

sl47lx.png

 

You can see the problems: five players in one attacking area, a lack of width, a lack of cover and when play breaks down we have a problem of defending the wide areas and also we tend to leave Sanchez as the only real prospect of breaking up an attack.

 

If you think about where the opposition players sit, it is easy to see why, a) We struggle to attack (narrow), struggle with width (narrow and only full backs offering this) and if/when we do break, there are too many players close to each other - making our strategy of countering very hard.

 

We cannot pass short, due to players being too close, and even going direct doesn't work - Benteke comes deep, wins the ball but everybody else is too close and/or marked out of the game - and we know they struggle to show movement for the ball.

 

This is when Benteke gets frustrated and tries to do it all himself.

 

Simply, we need width, we need ball retention and we need the manager (whoever it is) to work on getting the players to find space - AND/OR get so wingers into the team.

 

I probably have more to add, but I have shorthand to do. :(

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