Star Wars: Disney Era

[Chindie]

4 hours ago, desensitized43 said:

I've got big problems with Rey. Her characters progression feels very "unearned" to me. Beating a trained Jedi/Sith in single combat the first time she held a sabre. Force powers that she's not been able to use previously are suddenly fully developed and controllable with no training. Luke's progression was different in that we got to see him fail...a lot. We'd see a gradual increasing of his power and time jumps between each movie that imply he's been trying to master the art before successfully facing off against Vader/The Emperor. With no scenes indicating refinement of her abilities and with no time jump at all between TFA and TLJ it looks forced.

I don't necessarily have problems with Rey being a capable, even without training. I can totally accept someone being adept at something naturally, or just being gifted. I didn't see much problem with her just about managing to defeat Kylo in the TFA, as the film establishes that he's fairly badly injured in the fight, that he's blinded by emotion, and he's not the finished article either (plus there's a recurring idea in fiction that the trained can lose to the untrained simply because the untrained don't play by the rules and do unexpected things). 

I don't think they could just redo the journey Luke had piece by piece, it would just invite further criticism they were rerunning the old trilogy. Hence they seem to have just focused on giving her a very brief Force crash course. She still IS this series' Luke - the central character new to the world of the Force with a mysterious background that saw her raised on a desert planet etc etc, but they couldn't do the same steps exactly.

My issue with her as a character is she's completely bland. She has no flaws, edges, anything. Luke initially doesn't really either, but gets away with it as he's at first literally a surrogate for the audience learning about the world of Star Wars. Rey doesn't have that. The only interesting thing about her is her backstory, but even that you could see through from the beginning because Star Wars has become less a galaxy spanning space opera and more a family saga. One of the better points of TLJ was to shut off the idea that she is some lost child of one of the names in the series. Unfortunately I wouldn't bet against that being retconned in the next film, and the awful title might support thar (at least it won't be the horrible reincarnation of Anakin idea... Hopefully). Everything else though? She's a gifted competent character whose only flaw is she is ignorant of a world we already know filled with characters we already know. There's nothing interesting about her, nothing at all. You'd struggle to write a more bland character.

Even accepting that they couldn't just redo Luke's journey, and they made the new trilogy more like the ensemble Empire/RotJ increasingly were from the start giving less space to develop a character, the character is really weak. I think there's a good argument the only good character they've got in this new trilogy is Kylo. They **** Finn in the TLJ, Poe isn't a character so much as an archetype... They did make Luke interesting in a different way in  in TLJ but also in a way nobody was ever going to get fly on board with.

...Disney really have cocked this up.

[villa4europe]

14 hours ago, Chindie said:

...Disney really have cocked this up.

worse than lucas and the 2nd trilogy?

not for me yet but its getting close, TLJ is probably the 2nd worse film to date (I hate RotS, mainly because i'd read the pre film books and the film book and they rushed / left so much out it was shit, then you throw in the questionable acting, script etc)

[Chindie]

32 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

worse than lucas and the 2nd trilogy?

not for me yet but its getting close, TLJ is probably the 2nd worse film to date (I hate RotS, mainly because i'd read the pre film books and the film book and they rushed / left so much out it was shit, then you throw in the questionable acting, script etc)

It's not quite on that level yet.

The prequels are shit. Phantom Menace is a boring poorly thought out mess, Attack of the Clones is completely meritless dog shit, and Revenge of the Sith is just about OK in the context of what it had to work with.

The prequels have myriad issues. They're badly written, the cast has really bad actors and performances in key roles, the new characters are completely forgettable (or hellspawn in the case of Jar Jar)... They're just bad. They take a good premise and do the worst job they could with it.

So far Disney has mostly just disappointed. They've not made a film as outright objectively bad as AotC. TFA just feels a bit tired, Rogue One is a flawed but good movie, TLJ is a well made but badly thought out film that disappoints on nearly every level of it's story and seems to do so intentionally, Solo is an ok but intensely cynical mess whose nature as a rescue job is written all over it with technically poor film making putting together a weak plot. Disney's stuff has taken the golden goose and kinda done nothing with it.

[desensitized43]

15 hours ago, Chindie said:

Even accepting that they couldn't just redo Luke's journey, and they made the new trilogy more like the ensemble Empire/RotJ increasingly were from the start giving less space to develop a character, the character is really weak. I think there's a good argument the only good character they've got in this new trilogy is Kylo. They **** Finn in the TLJ, Poe isn't a character so much as an archetype... They did make Luke interesting in a different way in  in TLJ but also in a way nobody was ever going to get fly on board with.

...Disney really have cocked this up.

I hear what you say about not having problems with Rey being capable without training and I do agree to a large extent. It's fine to make her be capable, she would have had to be given her upbringing. I just can't buy the short amount of time from her discovering the force existed to being able to manipulate minds and move large objects. As I say, Luke got to progress in a more controlled way up to doing that stuff. It just feels rushed to me and forced.

I completely agree about Finn. He was by far the most interesting character in TFA and he was completely sidelined in TLJ and saddled with another terribly written character in Rose. I hate Poe for exactly the reason you say. He's a cartoon portrayal of "hot-shot pilot". Just awful.

[Raver50032]

9 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

I hear what you say about not having problems with Rey being capable without training and I do agree to a large extent. It's fine to make her be capable, she would have had to be given her upbringing. I just can't buy the short amount of time from her discovering the force existed to being able to manipulate minds and move large objects. As I say, Luke got to progress in a more controlled way up to doing that stuff. It just feels rushed to me and forced.

I completely agree about Finn. He was by far the most interesting character in TFA and he was completely sidelined in TLJ and saddled with another terribly written character in Rose. I hate Poe for exactly the reason you say. He's a cartoon portrayal of "hot-shot pilot". Just awful.

I liked Poe...

But I didn't like what they did with him in TLJ by suddenly making him appear to be all contemporary toxic male who was perceived to have an issue with female authority. That was never how Poe's character was set up in TFA. It gave nonsense purple haired Ms Gender Studies Holdo a vehicle with which to make a societal point where it didn't need to be. Holdo then went on to steal the scene that should have been Ackbar's final moment of glory... instead he went out of the front window with barely any whimper or mention. Having not heard of Holdo before TLJ, I was actually convinced that she was a traitor. Her attitude was the one that stank. Absolutely horrid portrayal of a character that apparently featured in a comic on the build up to TLJ to introduce her as a really good friend and confidante of Leia. For me, she wasn't even needed in TLJ, and yet Disney went with the gender agenda. It all worked out in the end I guess.  

I like the potential of Finn, but he was badly handled in TLJ - kind of though he was still wavering as to what side to be on. He'd made his choice in TFA, and didn't need to have that questioned in TLJ, or at least not in that way. The weakest part of the Ep9 trailer was Finn's trousers... that blue really doesn't go with the beige jacket. Other than that, I'm looking forward to seeing what both Poe and Finn are going to do.

The premise of the Leia Poppins moment was okay... it was the way it was shot that was poor. The foreshadowing of the 'Holdo Manoeuvre' as Leia flew through the hologram of Snoke's ship notwithstanding.

[coda]

At least someone's looking forward to it  

 

 

[desensitized43]

55 minutes ago, Raver50032 said:

I liked Poe...

But I didn't like what they did with him in TLJ by suddenly making him appear to be all contemporary toxic male who was perceived to have an issue with female authority. That was never how Poe's character was set up in TFA. It gave nonsense purple haired Ms Gender Studies Holdo a vehicle with which to make a societal point where it didn't need to be. Holdo then went on to steal the scene that should have been Ackbar's final moment of glory... instead he went out of the front window with barely any whimper or mention. Having not heard of Holdo before TLJ, I was actually convinced that she was a traitor. Her attitude was the one that stank. Absolutely horrid portrayal of a character that apparently featured in a comic on the build up to TLJ to introduce her as a really good friend and confidante of Leia. For me, she wasn't even needed in TLJ, and yet Disney went with the gender agenda. It all worked out in the end I guess.  

I like the potential of Finn, but he was badly handled in TLJ - kind of though he was still wavering as to what side to be on. He'd made his choice in TFA, and didn't need to have that questioned in TLJ, or at least not in that way. The weakest part of the Ep9 trailer was Finn's trousers... that blue really doesn't go with the beige jacket. Other than that, I'm looking forward to seeing what both Poe and Finn are going to do.

The premise of the Leia Poppins moment was okay... it was the way it was shot that was poor. The foreshadowing of the 'Holdo Manoeuvre' as Leia flew through the hologram of Snoke's ship notwithstanding.

Well that got very PC! Tbh I've tried to avoid that topic in my summary of how I feel because I didn't want to poke a hornets nest. There's vert few ways you can talk about this without appearing very mysogenistic or just generally have issues with women in certain roles... Not that I'm saying you are/do... But since you've gone down that road... 

There was nothing inherently wrong with them casting more female leads in star wars and putting them in herioc or authoritarian roles. The problem that they have, as Chindie pointed out, is that they're being written in a horribly one dimensional way... No flaws, no intricacies to their character. That would be a problem for any character male or female.

They're also not being helped by the general dissatisfaction with the series as a whole. When people are generally pissed off with what they see as Disneys mismanagement they're going to look for scapegoats.

That being said, I'm not sure why you're implying Holdo is some PC plant. Is that because she has purple hair you think she's trans or lesbian? I didn't get that at all. I just got she had purple hair. 

[sne]

I like Rey, Kylo and probably some other characters in the new films.

But Poe, Finn, Leia, Hux, Rose, Phasma, Laura Dern as herself, and Luke are just horrible, terribly written characters (especially in TLJ) 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, Raver50032 said:

I liked Poe...

But I didn't like what they did with him in TLJ by suddenly making him appear to be all contemporary toxic male who was perceived to have an issue with female authority. That was never how Poe's character was set up in TFA. It gave nonsense purple haired Ms Gender Studies Holdo a vehicle with which to make a societal point where it didn't need to be.

The worst part of the movie.

If it wasn't for that, literally none of the rest would have happened. Hundreds of people wouldn't have died, they would never have had their plan foiled. Nothing.

Literally her not wanting to tell Poe her entirely reasonable plan that he would have been fine with is the entire reason it all went to shit. 

[Raver50032]

41 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Well that got very PC! Tbh I've tried to avoid that topic in my summary of how I feel because I didn't want to poke a hornets nest. There's vert few ways you can talk about this without appearing very mysogenistic or just generally have issues with women in certain roles... Not that I'm saying you are/do... But since you've gone down that road... 

There was nothing inherently wrong with them casting more female leads in star wars and putting them in herioc or authoritarian roles. The problem that they have, as Chindie pointed out, is that they're being written in a horribly one dimensional way... No flaws, no intricacies to their character. That would be a problem for any character male or female.

They're also not being helped by the general dissatisfaction with the series as a whole. When people are generally pissed off with what they see as Disneys mismanagement they're going to look for scapegoats.

That being said, I'm not sure why you're implying Holdo is some PC plant. Is that because she has purple hair you think she's trans or lesbian? I didn't get that at all. I just got she had purple hair. 

The bit in bold and underlined, absolutely agree with. The issue as you allude to is where things seem to be 'forced' onto you and shoe-horned in... poorly written or planned.

As soon as Kathleen Kennedy put that t-shirt on with 'The Force Is Female' on it, she kind of poked a hornets nest of her own that didn't need to be. It's probably misquoted, but her whole dealings with TLJ in particular seem to focus on calling people 'man-babies' and 'Star Wars doesn't need white male fans...' I'm sure, deep down, it's all click bait misquotation, but with social media, poop spreads and sticks.

What I'd really like to see, and we haven't seen it in 40 years of Star Wars live action movies, is an actual, bad ass threat FEMALE baddie. Phasma has been a golden opportunity, and yet totally misdirected and wasted by both Abrams and Johnson. And instead... we've had the technically white, toxic Snoke, and greedy boy Ren... and a very white, Nazi-esque shouter in the form of Hux.

Because Kennedy was so desperate to have a positive, female lead and role model for little girls (one of her first interviews when Disney took over and they were plotting TFA), they created Rey... a perfect specimen, can do no wrong, multi-tasker, intellectually savvy, uber-capable engineer, pilot... mind reader... the list goes on. Nothing was really earned in TFA or TLJ. Not in anything we've seen, and that's where, as others have said, her journey is too quick, un-earned, and ultimately, unless corrected in 9, will be a fruitless legacy for females in this story. It doesn't suit Disney's agenda at this stage to have a flawed female lead. They need an easy win for her to put perceived wrongs of the past to bed. Quick and easy (path to the dark side of losing fans maybe). This isn't just a 'male Villa Fan' attitude either... If you watch Collider Jedi Council on YouTube, or other Star Wars fan channels that include female input, there's a lot of angst about Rey and how she and her journey have been handled. I'm the father of a wonderful daughter and I enjoy watching Star Wars with her - I want good role models for her that are well written, well acted... and actually show some trials and tribulations... not quick, easy wins to tick a box.

On the point about Holdo, some of my writing is maybe harsh. I just found her character to be overly smug, confrontational and un-necessary. She would have been quite at home on the bridge of Snoke's ship instead of Adrian 'They're tooling with you sir' Edmondson... For me anyway, it felt like they were making a point with Poe that seemed to come from nowhere.

I love Star Wars, and I want it to be inclusive, diverse and above all else, exciting. I thought Disney would be the safe pair of hands to take over after Mr Lucas decided to call it a day. It was either Disney, or Spielberg. What they seem to have lacked, is an actual cohesive, long term plan for the trilogy. I mentioned a few posts ago about Marvel, their plan has been over a decade in the making. Disney has used Star Wars to cash in on the captive audience who will turn out, come what may... Solo being a protest blip in my opinion, and partially timing. It should have come out in December 18 instead.

And Chindie - some parts of the prequels are okay. They're not all bad. Some of the music especially is amongst the best in the saga. It's all subjective and opinions, and that's good.  

[desensitized43]

18 minutes ago, Raver50032 said:

Because Kennedy was so desperate to have a positive, female lead and role model for little girls (one of her first interviews when Disney took over and they were plotting TFA), they created Rey... a perfect specimen, can do no wrong, multi-tasker, intellectually savvy, uber-capable engineer, pilot... mind reader... the list goes on. Nothing was really earned in TFA or TLJ. Not in anything we've seen, and that's where, as others have said, her journey is too quick, un-earned, and ultimately, unless corrected in 9, will be a fruitless legacy for females in this story. It doesn't suit Disney's agenda at this stage to have a flawed female lead. They need an easy win for her to put perceived wrongs of the past to bed. Quick and easy (path to the dark side of losing fans maybe). This isn't just a 'male Villa Fan' attitude either... If you watch Collider Jedi Council on YouTube, or other Star Wars fan channels that include female input, there's a lot of angst about Rey and how she and her journey have been handled. I'm the father of a wonderful daughter and I enjoy watching Star Wars with her - I want good role models for her that are well written, well acted... and actually show some trials and tribulations... not quick, easy wins to tick a box.

Completely and 100% agree with this.

What studios have to understand is that it can be rewarding to have a character triumph in spite of and because of their flaws. As you say, it's too easy to write your hero as completely perfect at everything...that's why everyone likes Batman more than Superman.

[Brumerican]

I've seen one explanation that  says Rey is so powerful because she was cloned from Luke's severed hand.

Would explain why she's a (Sky) walking bag of wank.

[GarethRDR]

5 hours ago, Raver50032 said:

I liked Poe...

But I didn't like what they did with him in TLJ by suddenly making him appear to be all contemporary toxic male who was perceived to have an issue with female authority. That was never how Poe's character was set up in TFA. It gave nonsense purple haired Ms Gender Studies Holdo a vehicle with which to make a societal point where it didn't need to be. Holdo then went on to steal the scene that should have been Ackbar's final moment of glory... instead he went out of the front window with barely any whimper or mention. Having not heard of Holdo before TLJ, I was actually convinced that she was a traitor. Her attitude was the one that stank. Absolutely horrid portrayal of a character that apparently featured in a comic on the build up to TLJ to introduce her as a really good friend and confidante of Leia. For me, she wasn't even needed in TLJ, and yet Disney went with the gender agenda. It all worked out in the end I guess.  

I like the potential of Finn, but he was badly handled in TLJ - kind of though he was still wavering as to what side to be on. He'd made his choice in TFA, and didn't need to have that questioned in TLJ, or at least not in that way. The weakest part of the Ep9 trailer was Finn's trousers... that blue really doesn't go with the beige jacket. Other than that, I'm looking forward to seeing what both Poe and Finn are going to do.

The premise of the Leia Poppins moment was okay... it was the way it was shot that was poor. The foreshadowing of the 'Holdo Manoeuvre' as Leia flew through the hologram of Snoke's ship notwithstanding.

Holdo gets a pass from me as that whole part of the flick felt like it was essentially a remake of Silent Running with Laura in her Dad's role.

[MrDuck]

[sne]

"Jar Jar is my favorite character" 

I know this comes after the actor who played him spoke out about his depression and issues from the backlash, but still.

Bold statement.

[stewiek2]

Having watched the Mandalorian panel and footage it looks fantastic. Filoni and Favreau. We're in safe hands.

[Ingram85]

A lot of doom and gloom about Disney but for me the only thing they have done wrong so far is allowing RJ to **** the bed with TLJ and still let him have his trilogy. The bloke is an absolute tool. 

I’ve enjoyed everything else. R1 was fantastic and Solo & TFA were both fun.

[MrDuck]

1 hour ago, Ingram85 said:

A lot of doom and gloom about Disney but for me the only thing they have done wrong so far is allowing RJ to **** the bed with TLJ and still let him have his trilogy. The bloke is an absolute tool. 

I’ve enjoyed everything else. R1 was fantastic and Solo & TFA were both fun.

Same here. TLJ was a mess, despite some great moments, but I thoroughly enjoyed the other other three. Rogue One in particular.

[Xann]

'Galaxy's Edge' - Disneyland, California.

14 acres. $1 billion.

[Chindie]