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limpid

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Winning the World Cup is not essential to determining a player's greatness, in my opinion. Plenty of brilliant, world class players have not/will never get a sniff of even qualifying for a World Cup, let alone win one. 

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If Argentina wins, because of the underdog status, Messi will rise to compete for the "best of all times" title with Maradona. I think this will happen. Fantastic storyline that can be discussed for the next generation.

 

I have to disagree because I don't think Messi has been that impressive (yes, 4 goals I know, but by his standard he has been quiet). Maradona meanwhile dragged Argentina on his own in 1986 and was head and shoulders the best player in the tournament

...and PaulC:

In my opinion Maradona was way more ahead of the rest than Messi is, and will still be the best all-time. I love his skills.

But Messi gets over a major hurdle. It is easy to argue that you need to have won the WC to be the best.

 

Messi is a great player, will rightly be considered among the greatest to play the game, but he was no Maradona. Messi doesn't cope with been marked by 4 players, and getting lumps kicked out of him anywhere near as well as Maradona did and in Maradona's day players weren't anywhere near as well protected. 

 

 

theres probably some quote by socrates (the original one) that could be spun in to football terms, no doubt di stefano would have argued maradona had it lucky...

 

if / when messi wins the world cup and finally silences those who say "he cant be the best ever until he wins the world cup" will there be another wave of people saying "he cant be the best ever because he doesnt get kicked" (which id actually argue isnt true, I've seen him get battered in many games, especially vs Jose's madrid) if thats going to happen then whats the point in having a "best ever" discussion in the 1st place? it seems as futile as the good old "world class" discussion

 

 

 

Without meaning to be pedantic, I don't think the argument is that he wont be considered the best if he doesn't win the world cup, I think it is more he won't be considered the best if he doesn't have an amazing world cup on his CV. Before this tournament he had had 1 world cup where he was poor by his standards, and another where he was just a young 19 year old bit part player. I don't think he has owned this world cup like Maradona 86, or Pele 70 or even Cruyff 1974, but he has played very well in 4 games I think.

 

 

Have to agree with my pal Voiny here. Messi has been decent in this world cup, nothing more. His goals came in the group stage and he has been stifled in the latter stages. Maradona meanwhile came alive at the business end of the tournament. 

 

Watch Messi score a hat-trick in the final now!  :D

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If Messi scores in this final and Argentina win. The rest of the tournament will be forgotten and he will go down as leading Argentina to the first World Cup in 28 years

Indeed.

Though arguably, all tournament, when it has really really mattered he has stepped up. Goals and assists, he's already dragged them there virtually by himself. On team form alone they've no right to be there IMO.

I think they'll lose tomorrow, but if they do win then I've no doubt Messi will have a hand in it. Best player I've ever seen regardless.

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What will this  be for his legacy if it occurs...o.k it's a far fetched scenario but more realistic scenario than Brazil 1-7 Germany.

 

Messi scores a hattrick so only second player ever to do that in WC history and with Muellur not scoring he finishes as WC top scorer. Argentina however lose 4-3......

 

Surely it's not all depending on Argentina winning the game.

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As good as Messi has been, a big credit has to go to their defence. They've only conceded 3 all tournament and Mascherano and Romero are in the running for the golden ball (player of the tournament). This is not 1 man dragging the team to the final like Maradona in 86.

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Baffled as to why Brazil are favourites tonight.

 

They need to do something for for their fans while I doubt The Netherlands are actually that bothered about 3rd place. The team didn't want to play the 1998 play off and put no effort in, wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing tonight. I'd say Brazil will win.

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Just hope their are some goals tonight (if only for my bank balance!) rather than both teams not giving a stuff and it tediously creeping to 0-0.

 

In fairness there are usually plenty of goals in this game, I think Brazil will win aswell.

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Baffled as to why Brazil are favourites tonight.

They need to do something for for their fans while I doubt The Netherlands are actually that bothered about 3rd place. The team didn't want to play the 1998 play off and put no effort in, wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing tonight. I'd say Brazil will win.

Brazil are playing for pride for sure.

Holland mind are probably still wondering why they didn't at least have a go at Argentina, I imagine they'll let the shackles off. There's a strong argument can be made that they're much better than a Brazil less Neymar, both on paper and tactically.

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Brazil starting XI: Julio Cesar, Thiago Silva ©, David Luiz, Paulinho, Oscar, Maxwell, Ramires, Luis Gustavo, Willian, Jo, Maicon.

Netherlands starting XI: Cillessen, Vlaar, De Vrij, Martins Indi, Blind, Van Persie ©, Sneijder, Robben, Kuyt, Clasie, Wijnaldum.

 

I'm surprised both teams have put out full strength teams. I would have thought this is a chance to play those who have hardly featured.

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Ian Wright "rodriguez has been the find of this world cup"

:bang:

in other words ITV and BBC found james rodriguez this world cup...

So have I to be fair. Don't watch much (any) French football.

Not that I'm defending ITV's incessant pandering to the idiot.

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