The Careers/Jobs thread

[Stevo985]

7 hours ago, Davkaus said:

If that's their game, I'd be checking what else is available out there.

Are you so well respected that you declining could realistically get them to change their mind, or are they likely to just find someone else?

I'm respected, but I think a lot of people would be surprised that I'd been chosen for the role. It's very much down to my current director getting the director role and wanting me specifically to work with him.

So in a way I'm very fortunate. That's why it's such a good opportunity. If I turned it down they'd get someone else in a second

[Stevo985]

5 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Does the role have clearly-defined performance targets? If not, do you think you could agree some?

I think you're entitled to ask for more compensation for more hours and more responsibility. But maybe you could meet them halfway by asking them to review in 6 or 12 months, depending on certain targets being met.

I don't like the situation they are forcing you into. I have taken more hours and more responsibility for no extra pay before, and my 'rocky' relationship with the company became just a bad relationship after that. Every late night I worked, every arsey phone call from the bosses I received, I couldn't get over that I had previously not needed to do anywhere near as much of it, for exactly the same money.

To be honest I know very little about the role. It's pretty much top secret, I've had to sign an NDA, and I've not been told much yet. Hence why it's nothing official yet.

The working hours thing isn't really ammo for me. There won't be an official increase in hours. It' just me assuming it'll require it.

[Stevo985]

4 hours ago, Xela said:

Yes, you have a right to be annoyed. No one works for nothing, despite what people say about loving their jobs. 

An increase in grade at our place is usually rewarded with a 20% increase in salary. Unless, you are way over your current grade wage structure. 

How well do you get on with the Director? Can you have a word with him 'off the record' and see what he thinks?

 

I think I probably am well paid for my current grade, I negotiated pretty well when I joined the company (by accident!)

I get on very well with him. I think it's the main reason he chose me! I'll definitely bring it up with him again

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, cheltenham_villa said:

i would just be honest. Say you appreciate them considering you and its a job you're could really see yourself doing. Let them know that you are looking for more responsibility but also that you are at a point in your life where you are also looking for some pay progression. Every single person in the world has likely had the same aspiration including all of these people more senior than yourself.

The company can then decide whether that is something you will get now or will at least lay out the future opportunities for you. You can make an informed decision.

In all honesty though, look through this thread and you will see many people saying many times that to really progress your pay, you will very likely need to consider leaving your current company.

Yeah good advice. And I know leaving the company is the best way to progress my pay, but having this on my CV would make that a much more profitable jump!

And to be honest I don't really mind about the pay. I'm comfortable with what I currently earn. I just don't want to be taken for a mug by agreeing to a harder job with more responsibility and not be paid more.

[cheltenham_villa]

10 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Yeah good advice. And I know leaving the company is the best way to progress my pay, but having this on my CV would make that a much more profitable jump!

And to be honest I don't really mind about the pay. I'm comfortable with what I currently earn. I just don't want to be taken for a mug by agreeing to a harder job with more responsibility and not be paid more.

The whole feeling like a mug thing is usually about justifying your decision with other people. Just weigh up the options and make the decision. Work out how much the money means to you and let that dictate how you play it. If it's a show stopper let them know but also expect to have to own that decision if it doesnt go the way you want or changes their perception of you.

If you just want to feel valued then tell them that, the job comes with increased responsibility so is it fair to expect some increased pay either now or in the future. You should take their response on face value, if you cant trust that you probably should be thinking of moving regardless.

The whole feeling like a mug thing is silly though, you are the only other person in the conversation so the only other person who knows the circumstances and the things you want to achieve. In my experience the hardest working and most valuable people in an organisation often end up being the most rewarded. Usually because they are flexible, talented, easy to work with and keep finding ways to add value. Not because they push for more money all the time.

[blandy]

4 hours ago, cheltenham_villa said:

In my experience the hardest working and most valuable people in an organisation often end up being the most rewarded.

I think nationally that’s an exception tbh. And you only have to look at women’s pay for doing the same job the same way as a man to know that other factors are often at play. Females often being less confident about pushing a case for more money, despite being as good at their job or better than a male colleague. And the same factors, or many of them affect men, too.  I’ve had, I think, 3 genuine jumps in pay, 2 of those I had to force. The other was when people started leaving and the company was scared of losing anyone else - I got about 5 grand a year jump in one go, from 23 to 28 about 20 years ago.  I think if you’re reasonable, constructive and logical asking for your wages to match your role and work is beneficial.

[Rds1983]

Been offered a promotion at work. It's doing the job I've been doing unofficially (development /stretch) for a while now but pleased to have got it officially. 

[Genie]

5 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

Been offered a promotion at work. It's doing the job I've been doing unofficially (development /stretch) for a while now but pleased to have got it officially. 

Congratulations mate.

[V01]

Congratulations.

[Davkaus]

Has anyone taken a paycut just to get a fresh start and a bit of a mental reset?

I only have a month left at my current gig, and the place is such a disaster, I'm planning to go to a smaller company that's a bit more modern and progressive to hone my technical skills a bit more, which might pay off in the long run. The spanner in the works is I've had a couple of "off the record" calls strongly suggesting I apply for the job above my current manager.

The two positions couldn't be more different really.

a. A much more hands on, technically interesting role, better location when required but also open to 100% WFH (even in pre-Covid times). It'll be one where I can just get my head down, do my job, and write code which is something that never stresses me out. About a 10% paycut on what I'm on at the moment.

b. Strictly managerial, reporting to the board, stock options. Probably a 25% payrise excluding the stock. A hell of a lot more responsibility, but essentially what I've been doing (covering for my manager's incompetence) for the last year, only with a wider scope. Honestly it's going to be a lot more stressful, but once that's on my CV for a while I've got a lot of extra doors open to me, without necessarily closing the door on just going back to being a code monkey if I want to. 

I know nobody can answer it but me but I have analysis paralysis and have for a few days now. B is by far the most financially sensible move, but A pays well enough that money just isn't an issue, to be honest. B seems a lot more stressful in some ways, but having more power and being able to just be a lot more open about how shit my boss is and getting him out of the way and taking more control might alleviate a big portion of that.

I am cursed by generally being quite pessimistic, reflective, and aware of the Peter Principle, which is a big thing putting me off B. 

Hidden option C is just staying where I am, hilariously overpaid (the reason I can't get A at my currently wage is I get a ridiculously generous on-call allowance which is 25% of my income. I have never recieved a call), but unable to deal with my boss's shit for much longer without resorting to just screaming into a pillow during each meeting.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Davkaus

[Xela]

Its a dilemma @Davkaus but as the old adage goes, no one on their deathbed ever wished they'd spent longer at work. 

If you'd have posed this question to me 10 years ago, I would have probably said go for option b, earn as much as you can, while you can. Today, a little older, and wiser I hope, i'd go towards option a, especially as you said the money would still be fine.

I've seen colleagues at work climb up the ladder and become a shell of their former selves. 

It sounds like you'd be much happier with the first option. Ability to work from home full time and a none stress job. Sounds ideal. A 10% cut isn't great but you said it would still be more than enough. Plus you can make changes to reduce your outgoings fairly easy if needed, I would guess? Cheaper car etc? Its what I'm looking at now as i'm not getting the full benefit of mine. What I use my car for, a Yaris would suffice!  .You seem to be similar to me, from what I can gather, in that you live well within your means and aren't materialistic.  For me, as my salary has increased, my outgoings have stayed the same, and maybe reduced! Not because i'm tight, I just want to be comfortable financially. 

I'm waffling now but hopefully you get my point. Good luck with your decision making. 

[Davkaus]

To be honest I only really have a car for fun now, the new job would be in the city centre so just getting a bus in will be quicker and cheaper. The only reason I haven't already sold my car is I want to see how much I still want to use it for gigs and football, etc, but it's looking like a complete waste of money at the moment.

You're bang on,I think. More money is always appealing but I've paid off the car and student loan. About half my salary is being saved now, and I was thinking of just doubling my pension contributions with the payrise anyway.

[markavfc40]

2 hours ago, Davkaus said:

Has anyone taken a paycut just to get a fresh start and a bit of a mental reset?

 

I have not long done exactly that. Well sort of. In January I started a job that over 37 hours pays a couple of k more but the job I left had guaranteed stand by payments that took me up to the pay of the new job but with the actual overtime meant I was on 3-4k more than I am on now.

It is in the same line of work, Highways Engineering, for the same company, I am just looking after much larger scale projects/sites but have less of them to look after. I am more in control of my own work and not so reliant on others which is what I like. I suppose stress wise it is about the same. I am also confident it will offer the opportunity of moving further up the ladder after a couple of years. I have also cut out the extra hours but on the downside have lost the extra pay although I wasn't reliant on it.

So far I am pretty pleased with my decision but have the nagging doubts about whether I should have sacrificed the extra hours/pay. Having said that I am saying that during lockdown with f all to do. Hopefully in the next few months I will be filling my time doing things I enjoy.

[StefanAVFC]

Let me preface this rant with the statement that I know stress is real, and having faced my own mental health demons, I don't want to delegitimize what my employee might be going through. 

I have an employee who has now extended her sick leave for stress for 2 months. We have a slightly stressful job, but having heard from her friend, her biggest issue is balancing 8 hours of work a day (we don't expect overtime, we encourage 5 min break per hour and 30 min lunch) with writing her dissertation and personal life.

Bearing in mind, we work completely from home, no expectation of staying late; I checked her stats and they aren't particularly crazy meaning she's blowing herself out like some members of the team are.

I just think the whole thing is a huge cop out, and I'm truly not sure where my being supportive should end and looking to replace her when she comes back, begins. It just seems she isn't up to the job.

[Rodders]

it is frustrating. On the one hand people's mental health capabilities are different, but at a certain point if you can't function at the job you're being paid to do, you shouldn't do it. When I was working for the council there was a colleague who had stress related breaks for extended periods of time. But the budget was tight, so everyone else had to cover this guys' work, he'd take several months off, up to 6 was full pay I think, and then come back for a bit, on part days, and then soon enough he'd be off sick again.

It's a pain in the arse, as you don't know how much of it is genuine, where the piss-taking comes in with 'invisible' problems. If someone had months off for cancer treatments or other visible conditions it's so much easier to accept it - which is unfair, I suppose. You don't want to discourage people with problems from taking time off, but you want some level of reliability. 

 

I will say that though, having had a distance learning qualification on the go for nearly 5.5 years until I finally finished it in January it is a massive pain in the backside having that other thing on the back of your mind. It can weigh you down. But then for me that's a fair challenge, I chose to do that course, and working from home you can prioritise when to do it. I dunno how regularly busy you are though, I generally have **** all actual work so I had no excuse during lockdown. 

 

[tom_avfc]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

Let me preface this rant with the statement that I know stress is real, and having faced my own mental health demons, I don't want to delegitimize what my employee might be going through. 

I have an employee who has now extended her sick leave for stress for 2 months. We have a slightly stressful job, but having heard from her friend, her biggest issue is balancing 8 hours of work a day (we don't expect overtime, we encourage 5 min break per hour and 30 min lunch) with writing her dissertation and personal life.

Bearing in mind, we work completely from home, no expectation of staying late; I checked her stats and they aren't particularly crazy meaning she's blowing herself out like some members of the team are.

I just think the whole thing is a huge cop out, and I'm truly not sure where my being supportive should end and looking to replace her when she comes back, begins. It just seems she isn't up to the job.

Could it not be that her friend has no idea what she is actually going through too? I mean for an outsider looking in it might appear that her biggest issue is with work and studying together. Given she’s off with long term stress there could easily be underlying issues which she isn’t choosing to share with her friend either.

I get that it’s a difficult situation and obviously there will be people that do use stress leave as a bit of a cop out but in reality I’m not sure you can just assume that of somebody without knowing what their issues actually are. 

[villakram]

5 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

Let me preface this rant with the statement that I know stress is real, and having faced my own mental health demons, I don't want to delegitimize what my employee might be going through. 

I have an employee who has now extended her sick leave for stress for 2 months. We have a slightly stressful job, but having heard from her friend, her biggest issue is balancing 8 hours of work a day (we don't expect overtime, we encourage 5 min break per hour and 30 min lunch) with writing her dissertation and personal life.

Bearing in mind, we work completely from home, no expectation of staying late; I checked her stats and they aren't particularly crazy meaning she's blowing herself out like some members of the team are.

I just think the whole thing is a huge cop out, and I'm truly not sure where my being supportive should end and looking to replace her when she comes back, begins. It just seems she isn't up to the job.

That's a minefield. Move cautiously. Record everything.

Just to add to what's already been said: Is she also taking a break from her studies too? ... and are the studies going to enable her to leave your workplace?

 

[StefanAVFC]

5 minutes ago, villakram said:

That's a minefield. Move cautiously. Record everything.

Just to add to what's already been said: Is she also taking a break from her studies too? ... and are the studies going to enable her to leave your workplace?

 

Yes I won't do anything out of line, we have to move her to a different cost centre after a certain amount of time off, and we can choose not to move her back when she comes back if we want. 

Studies are nothing to do with this work, and she isn't taking a break from her studies; she will continue to write her thesis.

[blandy]

3 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

Yes I won't do anything out of line, we have to move her to a different cost centre after a certain amount of time off, and we can choose not to move her back when she comes back if we want. 

A number of years ago, I took over a job as a team leader and inherited an employee who was off long term sick with stress. It soon exceeded 1 year, after which the company no longer had to pay wages (or the same level of wages). Me, and HR bod and a Union rep went to see this person and their partner at their house (all arranged and agreed) to discuss this. The person kicked off that HR hadn't done their bit properly (they hadn't) and so the Union got the company to keep paying the person for a while longer (3 months, I think it was) to start the clock from when the HR people had sorted their sh*t out.

Anyway, though there were doubts about the veracity of the illness, no one could be sure.

Then the company introduced an HR1 (voluntary redundancies (VR) because of a drop in workloads). You can't apply for VR if you're off sick. I let that be known to the person through a mutual acquaintance and lo and behold they "recovered" and came back to work. They then immediately applied for VR....and the big boss turned them down! So then I had a part time worker who wanted to leave, but wasn't being allowed to. Tried to help them by approving (like your bod) them to do some studying at a local college. I even had to fight the big boss to let that happen "you know if you reject this, he's gonna go off sick again - you've already rejected his VR application, and now this - it'll look to him (and the Union) like victimisation of someone with a history of stress related illness". I was doing my damnedest to be on the bloke's side and the big boss was doing the opposite.

I think what I'm saying is like @villakramsays - don't get in the way, make sure you do what you can to be "on their side" - whether you suspect she's scheming or not, you can't know, so she's innocent of that and is unwell., so be a good boss to her. And don't rely on more senior people to act and take on the burden of dealing with it all. They know they're well out of it, if they even care at all.

Good luck.

[Genie]

This talk reminded me of this case.

Quote

A Jaguar Land Rover worker, who missed 808 shifts and cost the car company £95,850 in sick pay, has won his legal battle over unfair dismissal.

A Birmingham employment tribunal was told 405 of those shifts were missed in Mr Rumbold’s final four years with JLR.

Launch manager Jon Carter, who conducted a company employment review, said: “Honestly, (it’s the) worst absence record I have ever seen - 808 shifts, price to the organisation is almost £100,000.

They had an enormous amount of time and evidence to formulate their case, and still lost.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Genie