BOF Posted September 9, 2013 Moderator Share Posted September 9, 2013 I was going to wait to see if Lambert turns into a good manager for us first. Mine was more of a general point, not specific to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I'm very much in the "Randy Lerner gets a lot of unfair stick" camp, but I haven't seen many people at all defending him hiring McLeish and I certainly do not. The only thing that people say with regards to the matter is that if he's going to crucified for hiring a bad manager, he should also receive credit if he hires a good one.Precisely. But that won't happen. It's not about a balanced discussion. People have decided whether they like or dislike Lerner so rather than discuss him on a case by case basis (which is what you are suggesting), people pick a side of the fence and ignore anything that is 'inconvenient' for them. Much like why your very good post has gone 2 days without a response because it might have meant having to concede the point. Just curious. What's being ignored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted September 9, 2013 Moderator Share Posted September 9, 2013 I'm very much in the "Randy Lerner gets a lot of unfair stick" camp, but I haven't seen many people at all defending him hiring McLeish and I certainly do not. The only thing that people say with regards to the matter is that if he's going to crucified for hiring a bad manager, he should also receive credit if he hires a good one.Precisely. But that won't happen. It's not about a balanced discussion. People have decided whether they like or dislike Lerner so rather than discuss him on a case by case basis (which is what you are suggesting), people pick a side of the fence and ignore anything that is 'inconvenient' for them. Much like why your very good post has gone 2 days without a response because it might have meant having to concede the point.Just curious. What's being ignored?Going back to PV's post, I'm on about Lerner getting credit for appointing good managers if people are going to criticise the bad ones. You tend to find that people who lean towards being positive about Lerner will emphasise the likes of Lambert and those of a negative persuasion will prefer to emphasise that he made a mistake with McLeish. I've also often read people put the Lambert appointment down to 'luck' rather than risk giving the man credit for the appointment. It's this lack of balance that makes a discussion on what Lerner has actually done largely impossible with the majority of posters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I think you have to credit him for appointing lambert. At the moment, for me, the scales are still tipping heavily in the negative direction but the lambert appointment has helped shift it ever so slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 Echoing what someone else said but I think it is premature to conclude Lambert has been a good appointment. From a financial POV perhaps but if we are going by on-field progression, then we should reserve judgement until the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I'm very much in the "Randy Lerner gets a lot of unfair stick" camp, but I haven't seen many people at all defending him hiring McLeish and I certainly do not. The only thing that people say with regards to the matter is that if he's going to crucified for hiring a bad manager, he should also receive credit if he hires a good one. Precisely. But that won't happen. It's not about a balanced discussion. People have decided whether they like or dislike Lerner so rather than discuss him on a case by case basis (which is what you are suggesting), people pick a side of the fence and ignore anything that is 'inconvenient' for them. Much like why your very good post has gone 2 days without a response because it might have meant having to concede the point. I was going to wait to see if Lambert turns into a good manager for us first. ....are you waiting for us to win the European cup, before sticking your toe in the water? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I think you have to credit him for appointing lambert. At the moment, for me, the scales are still tipping heavily in the negative direction but the lambert appointment has helped shift it ever so slightly. .....did the McLeish signing tip the scales ever so heavily? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 Echoing what someone else said but I think it is premature to conclude Lambert has been a good appointment. From a financial POV perhaps but if we are going by on-field progression, then we should reserve judgement until the end of the season. Naturally, he's WIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I'm very much in the "Randy Lerner gets a lot of unfair stick" camp, but I haven't seen many people at all defending him hiring McLeish and I certainly do not. The only thing that people say with regards to the matter is that if he's going to crucified for hiring a bad manager, he should also receive credit if he hires a good one. Precisely. But that won't happen. It's not about a balanced discussion. People have decided whether they like or dislike Lerner so rather than discuss him on a case by case basis (which is what you are suggesting), people pick a side of the fence and ignore anything that is 'inconvenient' for them. Much like why your very good post has gone 2 days without a response because it might have meant having to concede the point. I was going to wait to see if Lambert turns into a good manager for us first. ....are you waiting for us to win the European cup, before sticking your toe in the water? It's going to take more than one 15th placed season, put it that way. The signs are looking good and I like the way we're heading, but it's a results business, so let's see where we are at the end of this season. A top half finish would suggest strongly that the actions taken are working and that Lerner has indeed, appointed a good un. Another season like the last one though would be a disaster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 Echoing what someone else said but I think it is premature to conclude Lambert has been a good appointment. From a financial POV perhaps but if we are going by on-field progression, then we should reserve judgement until the end of the season. Naturally, he's WIP Thus we should wait to see if such progress unfolds rather then assuming it will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted September 9, 2013 Moderator Share Posted September 9, 2013 Thus we should wait to see if such progress unfolds rather then assuming it will.Well no because that means ignoring the total transformation to our squad in the past 12 months. Even Risso who is reserving judgement has acknowledged that it appears to be going in the right direction. Or are we as Villa fans so uncomfortable with positivity that we'll steadfastly refuse to admit things look to be going quite well, right up until gameday 38 when it can no longer be reassonably denied. If that's how long some want to wait then fine. I'd honestly rather enjoy supporting the club and feeling good about the club right now. To flip it on its side for you. What is there to moan about at present apart from the lack of signing a CAM or a scrum half in the summer window? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 Thus we should wait to see if such progress unfolds rather then assuming it will. What is there to moan about at present apart from the lack of signing a CAM or a scrum half in the summer window? The fact that we've turned into Stoke. Have you ever been to Stoke, it's an absolute shithole. And it isn't even a real place, more a collection of shite towns and villages. Rubbish. And I'm blaming Lerner for that. I bet he hasn't even been to Stoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted September 9, 2013 Moderator Share Posted September 9, 2013 The fact that we've turned into Stoke. Have you ever been to Stoke, it's an absolute shithole. And it isn't even a real place, more a collection of shite towns and villages. Rubbish. And I'm blaming Lerner for that. I bet he hasn't even been to Stoke.Hmm, hadn't thought of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I think you have to credit him for appointing lambert. At the moment, for me, the scales are still tipping heavily in the negative direction but the lambert appointment has helped shift it ever so slightly. .....did the McLeish signing tip the scales ever so heavily? The houllier signing, the Mcleish signing and the piss poor management of finances nearly broke the scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) Thus we should wait to see if such progress unfolds rather then assuming it will.Well no because that means ignoring the total transformation to our squad in the past 12 months. Even Risso who is reserving judgement has acknowledged that it appears to be going in the right direction. Or are we as Villa fans so uncomfortable with positivity that we'll steadfastly refuse to admit things look to be going quite well, right up until gameday 38 when it can no longer be reassonably denied. If that's how long some want to wait then fine. I'd honestly rather enjoy supporting the club and feeling good about the club right now. To flip it on its side for you. What is there to moan about at present apart from the lack of signing a CAM or a scrum half in the summer window? I generally agree with this and I probably should've pointed out that I am pretty confident that we will have an encouraging season. However it is quite conceivable that come January we could be in a similar situation to where we were last January and if this does happen Lambert, in all likelihood, will lose a lot the fans. His project is still ultimately on precarious ground and it isn't 'being negative' to recognise so. Yes it is all well and good transforming the squad and bombing out players that most fans deemed not good enough but then the new squad has to prove they are better then the former by outperforming them results-wise. Which is why this season is very important in the formation of our judgements about Lambert and the squad. Edited September 9, 2013 by Isa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 It's maybe a bit short termist, but a loss against Newcastle will see a lot of the early optimism disappear. Three points from three difficult games, with two out of three good performances is decent, but a loss will completely change the perception I think, and put the young team back under the magnifying glass. Not that it will happen of course, we're going to smash them 5-0. (well, 5-1 maybe...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I think irrespective of how things turn out, Lambert has at least got me excited about Villa for the first time in ages. Perhaps it will just be transitory (and losing to Newcastle would indeed burst the bubble a bit) but it's more than could be said for McLeish et al. People are of course entitled to dislike Lerner or Faulkner if they believe the negatives outweigh the positives, it just gets my goat when they suffer a bout of amnesia and conveniently forget their achievements or failures entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted September 10, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted September 10, 2013 Thus we should wait to see if such progress unfolds rather then assuming it will. Well no because that means ignoring the total transformation to our squad in the past 12 months. Even Risso who is reserving judgement has acknowledged that it appears to be going in the right direction. Or are we as Villa fans so uncomfortable with positivity that we'll steadfastly refuse to admit things look to be going quite well, right up until gameday 38 when it can no longer be reassonably denied. If that's how long some want to wait then fine. I'd honestly rather enjoy supporting the club and feeling good about the club right now. To flip it on its side for you. What is there to moan about at present apart from the lack of signing a CAM or a scrum half in the summer window? Not sure if it's being "uncomfortable with positivity" so much as the subjectivity of the future as compared the 100% clarity of the past. Like you, I "feel" good about where we are heading - but the last few seasons were anything but pretty. It can be hard to look past that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Why stop at the last 2 seasons? Why not go back 5? Or 10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted September 10, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted September 10, 2013 Why stop at the last 2 seasons? Why not go back 5? Or 10? 10 years ago: - Jonathon Bewers turned 21 (on this very day, apparently. Happy Birthday!) - Our summer transfers included the double signing of Gavin McCann and Thomas Sorenson from Sunderland - Rover - our main sponsor then - were still in business - Doug owned the club While you can argue that all this contributed to where we are now, I think we can agree that it has had less of an effect on our current situation compared to the last few seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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