AVFC: In Obscurity

[VillanousOne]

 

The problem is not just Aston Villa, it is unfortunately football as a whole. The hype of the Premier League is farcial outside the top 6 or 7 clubs. It really is a league of nothing teams.

 

Spot on. Football in general is essentially about the money. Every once in a while a team springs up that defeats the odds but then eventually gets pillaged by the teams with richer owners. This has happened recently to teams like Dortmund and Real Sociedad who broke the trend and at least in other leagues it seemed possible for a while.

 

Unfortunately it doesn't even seem possible in the Premier League.

 

We are becoming more like the Scottish Premier League, except rather than two teams we have a power base of 6 or 7 teams and the rest are just there to be beaten and make up the numbers. The Premier League don't want teams like Villa to challenge that status quo - their profits are solely based on the Chelseas, Liverpools, etc etc of this world. We are there to be beaten and make other clubs look good.

Back to Lambert and co: The problem is despite our slight improvements defensively we still seem to only save our best performances for the big clubs who come at us, we hit them on the break and forego possession, and sometimes it works.

As soon as we come up against teams happy to sit deep in numbers whether it be West Ham or Bradford, we just have no creativity to break them down. We just don't know what to do with possession and that is just embarrassing for a club like ours. Tactically also i'm afraid Lambert only gets it right about 1 in 5 and that again can't be defended.

If we failed in the summer to get a No10 then we've had till Jan till line up another target, again we failed. Instead embroiling ourselves in a needless bitter battle over a barely above average ageing player from a rival.

I know every team has important players that get injured and cost them games, but the whole Vlaar thing is ridiculous. Yes agreed we have been unlucky with injuries to Zog and Okore which might have changed things had they been fit. But the decision to sign Kozak then Holt and then overlook Helenius and Gardener week in week out frustrates massively.

I truly believe that we have a reasonable squad that could play better with a different manager, I think Lambert has had enough funds to have got some kind of form and consistency out of this team and yet every week you just can't predict how bad we will perform. We saw against Liverpool how good we can be, why was nothing learnt from this and why did we go straight back to pub football vs Everton. Why do we only seem to kick up a gear when we have conceded?

 

Edited February 9, 2014 by VillanousOne

[MikeMcKenna]

Yes this is a terrible period for our club and it's pretty depressing to go down to Villa Park.

 

However, to call us a nothing club and 'fading into obscurity' when we've never out of the Premier League, what does that make many other clubs in the 92? Just seems a bit disrespectful to them if I'm honest and a number of clubs would kill to be in our situation.

 

I know an Arsenal fan who screams and shouts and hates Wenger because they haven't won anything, but by the same token as I've mentioned here, he gets consistent top 4 finishes and the opportunity to see top players. Obviously this is on a different level, but it holds the same relevance.

 

I think football fans of any support and team are a bit spoilt sometimes so when hard times actually happen, we think it's the end of the world. But when you step back and take a look at football on the whole, the situation isn't quite as bad. We still have a football club. We don't have a mental owner. We haven't been relegated in years. Maybe it's because I'm a younger fan. I haven't seen us win things. I don't think it's to do with expectation though before that line gets trotted out.

 

I'm hoping that whatever we're doing at the moment pays off, I really do. We need to do something to get out this slump. Whether that's a new owner, new manager, new players; a combination of all 3? I don't know.

I am not saying we are "fading into obscurity" - I think we are already there. Surviving in the PL is not for me at least anything to be proud of and that is nothing to do with "disrespecting" other clubs. Many of our fans may get something out of still being on the periphery of the "elite" but I am only interested in what we do. You say the "situation isn't quite as bad" and i disagree totally. In all my time supporting AVFC this is the worst ever - if you have no hope, you have nothing and surviving or thinking top 10 is satisfactory is ambition less.

Unlike most of our fans I am very, very lucky and have seen Villa win everything bar the FA Cup and visa versa have known harder times than now in terms of our league standing. The difference now however is that despite everything in the past there was always hope, a belief that we were punching below our weight and that better times would eventually come.

We rightly believed back in the 90s and early 2000s that we could have done better than the occasional 6th position, but now many fans view top ten as the best we are likely to achieve and more strangely seem content using as you do the argument that "others" are worse off and we should simply be happy to be in the PL and not having "been relegated for years".

[foreveryoung]

Agree with Villanousone. Its a bit far that we are dropping into Obscurity. Personally I think this team needs one thing. A Special manager, before you ask, im not sure who, but there must be someone with a bit of tactical nous. Its a fantastic project for the right man with tactical ability and a will to win. Ok we may need to spend a little, lose the Luna's and Lowtons, but I believe we are heading in the right direction  Its just very old fashioned tactics thats killing us, teams this season have easily worked us out. When we change to an attacking team (i.e Liverpool) we look great, I think maybe they didn't expect Lambert to play that way which is why we looked so good. But for some reason Lambert thinks this is not the way forward. So for me he has done as much as he can and before you say we missed out on that ACM, personally I don't think he would know what to do with a player of that calibre.

[Danwichmann]

 

Of the seven teams who have been ever present in the PL; Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, AVFC, Tottenham, Everton, we are the only ones that have really been cut adrift with little or no hope of challenging again for top 6. In the final months of ellis's ownership of the club, I posted something about being on the "The Road to Obscurity" and that the club would eventually end up as a non entity in the grand scheme of things if he didn't sell. Under his leadership we were destined never to achieve, win any honours or even challenge.

Even when we were in the old third division no one would have said we were in obscurity; insignificant, unimportant, deficient of light. Villa fans and others always knew we would come back.

However at the time, I envisaged "obscurity" as us being relegated and fighting it out in the lower leagues for years. I never thought just 7/8 years later that "obscurity" would become a reality in the bottom half of the PL. But IMHO that is exactly where we are now. Now it would take a brave man to forecast that we will one day rise from the proverbial ashes and as a minimum challenge for top 6.

With this in mind as each season passes I am finding it harder and harder to sustain the 300 mile round trip every fortnight. Especially as I also know that whether I attend or not will not matter to the powers that be. Despite all the crap coming out the club, we no longer count.

As a club we have lost our way, have no vision for the future and the current strategy is not going to achieve anything other that a constant battle for survival. The constant round and round arguments & bitching on VT illustrates that we must be among the most disunited fans around and the negativity/positivity makes not a jot of difference to what is happening to our once great club.

We are now in obscurity.

 

Spot on Mike.

 

Depressing, isn't it?

 

Is this the fault of MON?

McLeish?

Houllier?

Lambert?

 

Yeah sure, the managers have made mistakes - but MON had money thrown at him, then the rug pulled quicker than he can say I quit, Houllier was given 30m even though we were apparently skint and making cut-backs under MON, McLeish was an insane choice and we are suffocating under the shit he bought - and he had to sell 40m worth of talent to get those signings - but again, Given on a 5 year deal?

 

And now Lambert is being forced to shop at Aldi.

 

Stupid choices, naïve decisions.

 

There is one thing consistent with our fall, one person, one man, he will get his money back (most of it at least) but I am not sure we will get our club back, this has set us back 10 years.

 

 

But we weren't challenging for top 6 in Doug's last few years either, it's the same pattern as now, so Lerner is not the only constant as we've failed to challenge under two owners.

[MikeMcKenna]

The reality is that we have had bad spells under most if not all of our owners in the past 50 years but there is a difference now to any time before.We always fervently believed that we could turn the corner, pick ourselves and in time generate new momentum. Given what we know about our strategy, project Imho top 10 is the BEST we can ever do.

If some are happy with that I respect your opinion. However I am not, as it seems like we have given up on all but surviving and are in some kind of limbo hoping that a miracle will happen while playing absolutely dire football most of the time.

That said I am also a realist and accept that unless we are taken over by an even richer billionaire we will never compete for CL and I reiterate I can accept that.

BUT I would like my team to show a degree of ambition, do better that winning 4/5 games a season at home, give the likes of Everton and clubs of a similar level a run for their money and not be constantly fearing relegation.

Edited February 9, 2014 by MikeMcKenna

[TRO]

I can sense how heartfelt your post is Mike and I share your pain mate. It is shameful how low expectations have been allowed to fall by those running this great and proud club.

 

I have always maintained though and still do that it is on us, the supporters, to keep our expectations high and never stop striving for this club to be back up amongst the elite in the country. Our history is not just something to be proud of and look back on. It is something to be used as a beacon to aspire to reaching again. That is what separates us from most other clubs and makes us special. The day us as supporters lower our expectations is the day this club will be in obscurity.

 

I can't tell you when but we will come again. This great club has too much going for it not to. It won't be under Lerner though.

 God I needed that, thanks mark

however i am equally not dismissing Mike's comments.

[MikeMcKenna]

I can sense how heartfelt your post is Mike and I share your pain mate. It is shameful how low expectations have been allowed to fall by those running this great and proud club.

 

I have always maintained though and still do that it is on us, the supporters, to keep our expectations high and never stop striving for this club to be back up amongst the elite in the country. Our history is not just something to be proud of and look back on. It is something to be used as a beacon to aspire to reaching again. That is what separates us from most other clubs and makes us special. The day us as supporters lower our expectations is the day this club will be in obscurity.

 

I can't tell you when but we will come again. This great club has too much going for it not to. It won't be under Lerner though.

Mark, I see your point and would say that my post is in the context of the current ownership and the strategies being employed. Currently whether we the fans "keep our expectation high and never stop striving.." IMO it makes no difference at the moment - we are more marginalised and more apathetic than ever before.

The protests under Ellis may not have had a significant impact on the ultimate outcome but at least they gave those involved a channel for their anger and passion. Now we point a finger at the over commercialisation of football, our inability to compete, wring our hands, accept our lot and thank whoever for small mercies!

Now many view our current strategy as progress and believe that there is something at the "end of the rainbow" - 8-10th place is considered our new gold standard.

[thetrees]

 

I can sense how heartfelt your post is Mike and I share your pain mate. It is shameful how low expectations have been allowed to fall by those running this great and proud club.

 

I have always maintained though and still do that it is on us, the supporters, to keep our expectations high and never stop striving for this club to be back up amongst the elite in the country. Our history is not just something to be proud of and look back on. It is something to be used as a beacon to aspire to reaching again. That is what separates us from most other clubs and makes us special. The day us as supporters lower our expectations is the day this club will be in obscurity.

 

I can't tell you when but we will come again. This great club has too much going for it not to. It won't be under Lerner though.

Mark, I see your point and would say that my post is in the context of the current ownership and the strategies being employed. Currently whether we the fans "keep our expectation high and never stop striving.." IMO it makes no difference at the moment - we are more marginalised and more apathetic than ever before.

The protests under Ellis may not have had a significant impact on the ultimate outcome but at least they gave those involved a channel for their anger and passion. Now we point a finger at the over commercialisation of football, our inability to compete, wring our hands, accept our lot and thank whoever for small mercies!

Now many view our current strategy as progress and believe that there is something at the "end of the rainbow" - 8-10th place is considered our new gold standard.

 

The difference is that the protests under Ellis were because of starvation of funds.

Randy Lerner has pushed hundreds of millions into the club in the last 8 years, and we find ourselves where we are now. No manager, including the present one, has been starved of funds. 

At the moment, the described 'gold standard' seems a million miles away, which it shouldn't be, considering the investment that was available. To go beyond that, however, we would need an investment of Mansour/Abramavich proportions, something that I don't see happening.

So we are destined for years of further frustration and hand-wringing, with no practical solution to the problem. We can only pray that the frustration and hand-wringing don't turn into despair.

[GENTLEMAN]

We can only pray that the frustration and hand-wringing don't turn into despair.

 

I think it will turn into apathy which is worst IMO.

Edited February 9, 2014 by GENTLEMAN

[AVTuco]

Very nice short versions of our recent history and feelings of fans during this dark time. Thank you for that.

My input is short as usual: get out of our club Lerner!

Edited February 10, 2014 by AVTuco

[ermie123]

All i want from the Villa at this moment in time is a team that plays like it means something!!!  Not this excuse for football that they are giving us at present and for the past so many years!  Watching the Villa players during the West Ham game was plain brain numbing!  Its been the same for ages now players not being able to pass to each other, players not running into space, not creating space, not wanting to just shoot!  When was the last time we saw a Villa player score from thirty yards?  Or even a stunning volley or overhead kick?  I can remember being at Old Trafford and seeing Gareth Barry make a seventy yard pass to Thomas Hitzelberger that if Beckham had have done the same it would made headlines all over the world!!!   Surely there should be enough young players somewhere that can play football like they enjoyed it?  I would love to see the Villa players argue with each other if we concede a goal or an attack goes belly up because someone did not play the right ball!!!!!!!!  If they could show PASSION!!!!!!!!!!!!  Lambert for me just doesn't cut it here.  He may have thought he could do the job, but he just did not understand that AVFC is a beast of a club and if you do not tame it then it will tear you to bits!!  The last manager that tamed the beast was Mr Ron Saunders!!!  For the good of his own reputation Paul Lambert must sit down and think (before he agrees to a contract extension), have i got what it takes to tame this beast?  Have i really got it?  If he decides that he has then he must confront the owner and state his intentions which should be a dismantling root and branch of his scouting team, the assistant manager and the coaches because the assistant manager is not up to it and the coaches are the people who are supposed to get these players playing football like it should be played and as for the scouts, at present they are clearly not up to the job!!!!  Do we even have any i ask myself?  Why is it that other clubs have scouts in other countries, but not us?  It does not matter if you buy a team full of highly skilled players if you cannot manage them properly and Lambert would be doing no better (in my opinion), if he was at the Manchester clubs, Chelsea or Liverpool!  This Premier League finds you out if you cannot cut it just look at the managers that have been sacked, even Pep Guardiola would not come into it!!!  So i rest my case!!!!! 

[jimmyvillan]

I agree that it isn't just Villa, Unless a billionaire owner buys a club a la Man City, the top teams will continue to dominate. It is really depressing. Football isn't really competitive anymore. Teams may win one off games but no team will come from left field to win the title nowadays. I would even doubt that if the Class of 92 were about now they wouldn't have been the same success. Too much pressure (money) riding on games to bring in 5 or 6 young players and give them a proper chance. Some might argue that Southampton have done it with success but they haven't all been thrown in at once. Lallana has been in there first team about 4 years now. Rodriguez had first team football at Burnley. Shaw, Chambers and Ward-Prowse are the only ones that have come in together and bar Shaw, they have been used sparingly. 

 

It's sad but football is being ruined by money. I'm in my mid-twenties and I find myself quite disillusioned with it all. I still hang on every Villa result which is hard at the moment but I find myself watching non-villa related games and just getting annoyed with the in your face coverage, over paid players and the media. 

 

So it's either time to hope for change in football or to start fixing all my merchandise to Red Bull Villains!

[Denis_B]

I had unrealistic expectations this season - finishing 10th!

[Mantis]

A lot of people are calling for Lerner to go (understandable) but surely what would better would be him simply loosening the purse strings?

[villabromsgrove]

 Is Randy prepared to make Villa competitive again by signing talented and proven quality players this summer?

 

Is he prepared to pay the higher salaries that these players will demand?

 

If the answer is no, then sadly Mike McKenna is correct.

[John]

I have to say Mike I was not so sure back in those seasons we spent in the old Division 3 that we would come back as strongly as we did. I felt sure we would get back into the 2nd Division but we did not do it first time of asking as we had expected and to get back into Division 1 seemed a long way off back then. After the 71 LCF I think anyone who had predicted that 10 years later we would be league champions and champions of Europe the following season would have been looking over their shoulder for the men in their white coats.

 

We missed a big opportunity to build upon those glory days of the early 80s and but for Graham Taylor might have faced a lengthy period out of the top flight as a result in the late 80s/90s. Opportunities were then missed again when we were runners-up twice and now following three 6th place seasons we find the club looking similar to we had done in the seasons that led to our relegation in 1967. Having seen us relegated again 20 years after we dropped out of the top flight in 67 I had hoped we would never face this again under Randy's leadership. But players from the 82 squad had suggested he may have left it too late to break into what was a predictable top 4 back then and so it has proved only more so since Manchester City joined the club.  

 

We now seem to face more seasons where we battle for survival and give up hope of cup wins because PL safety is not worth risking for a Cup Final win. It would need a new owner with money to burn, a big change in approach from our current one or for Lambert to do what Clough and Saunders did all those years ago with Forest and us if that is still possible 30 years later without the money that buys titles these days.

 

I have to agree that we along with all but Arsenal, the two Manchester clubs, Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs are also rans in this league. Like Everton we have it in us to threaten a top 6 season but the under investment that continues at our club both fee and wage wise makes even top half seasons unlikely given other clubs are prepared to pay more. We are not yet in obscurity unless that applies to every club other than the six mentioned but we are at risk of relegation as are half of this division and it could be just as hard a road back as it was after 67 as the likes of Derby and Forest have proved.

 

It is a tought time to be a Villa Fan Mike and we have both been there more than once over the years. I can understand that your round trip is a hard one to make just now and it is superb that so many fans still pay their hard earned money to see what is so often a sad home performance at Villa Park. What we now need is the hope of a bright future that we both experienced over 30 years ago. I hope those days come again for us but very much so for those who were not old enough to experience them in the past. That hope will see us both making that trip to Villa Park we have been making for so many years but we like all Villa fans do need to see some grounds for hope that we can win something or at the very least aim for something other than just staying up.

 

I think the comments made on VT show we as fans care about our football club and will not accept the current situation with just a shrug in the same way as we did not in the past. That still makes us count although like a previous chairman once felt this might be something some at the club might also now prefer was not the case. Thanks for raising this issue Mike.            

[ozvillafan]

I'm a bit more hopeful of our ability to "crack into the top 6".

 

I'm not convinced that we need a truckload of money. We need to compete where it matters: On the pitch.

 

How? Through playing better football. How, exactly? We need a club focus on a style of football from youth to first team. Tactics, formations, roles, positioning, marking, movement. It won't happen immediately and the usual problems remain of better players being poached - but it can happen if we appoint the right people.

 

Too Altruistic? Perhaps. But if we can't do this and need truckloads of money instead, why do we bother showing up n the first place?

[danceoftheshamen]

Some great heartfelt posts on here so may as well put my 2p's worth in too....

 

I missed the 67 relegation due to only being a new born baby at the time! However i started supporting Villa when they were in the 3rd division to the bemusement of my junior school friends at the time who all supported Wolves being as that where i was living at the time. I share very good company in why i chose to support Villa though... a guy called Tom Hanks also liked the sound of the name!

 

So i was a mere child when we gathered momentum back in the early to mid 70's, though i remember hearing about the league cup wins, Ray Graydon, John Deehan and Alex Cropley's names stick in my mind. My first game was a dire 0-0 draw against Leeds Utd when i think we missed a Penalty. Then a 1-3 loss against Liverpool when Brian Little netted in front of the Holte... We finished 7th that year. As a season ticket holder i was also very fortunate to witness the League title win and the European cup win which still burns bright in my mind...I do genuinely feel so sad for the Villa Fans who missed all that and cannot believe the run of events since those monumental days when i travelled home and away to every game for many seasons including when we got relegated twice. I actually have some great memories of those years travelling to all the new grounds, Plymouth, Reading, Oxford, Watford etc etc... If we do go down this season which i do fear is possible sadly then that would be my best tip to any fans who've never experienced it... Just go to as many of those away games as you can... great fun.

 

In the 90's i found it really frustrating as we got close a few times but were never really a patch on the 80-82 team and Ellis so held us back when we could have become a dominant force akin to Arsenal had he had bigger pair of gonads. We aren't talking breaking the bank either just another two or three players.

 

The noughties were just all about the decline of Ellis really and the club followed suit. pretty dismal underachieving averageness which was what started to put me off going so often. It became monotonous. There was no spark, little hope and constant frustration.

 

Then finally Ellis sold up, finally spirits were lifted, hope returned and for 3 seasons i watched.. eager to be enticed into buying another season ticket for the first time in over a decade... But it never seemed right to me under MON... The football was just not right, nowhere near the quality i had witnessed in previous Villa teams and it didn't surprise me that we didn't get above 6th place.... So my money stayed in my pocket... i was ready to buy but the club and Randy didn't quite sell it to me. The players were just average and the football ugly... Sure enough it was another massive false dawn, another let down in 30 years of let downs. 

 

The last few seasons though have been the worst i can ever remember. Villa's poor fans have literally had their noses rubbed in it week in week out for three and a half seasons now and i have found it cruel to watch. I feel so sorry for fans who have seen nothing but this since they started supporting the club, their father telling them stories of how amazing it was when we won the games biggest prizes... Those memories have dimmed and faded and less and less Villa fans have any recollection of them at all. They are not real to most Villa fans any more and it's no surprise that so many fans now see us as a Fulham or Norwich type club. That's all they have ever seen and i appreciate that.

 

My message is this though to those fans

 

The giant has been put in an induced coma at the moment by the owner and the owner before him. Briefly the giant stirred when MON came and kicked it in the head a few times but then the owner put it back into an even deeper coma when he got the medical bill and realised he couldn't afford to pay it. Now he's had to pay off the bill which was incurred and the giant has been kept breathing on life support whilst the costs were got back under control....So the giant never really fully awoke! It just stirred and opened one eye temporarily. The giant can awake though and we all have to make as much noise as possible and if necessary remove those who are keeping it in a coma. Silently and meekly accepting it will simply prolong the situation so let them at the top know we expect better... MUCH better! 

 

This is Aston Villa FC

 

Message to owner:

Do a poop or get off the potty!

[MikeMcKenna]

I'm a bit more hopeful of our ability to "crack into the top 6".

I'm not convinced that we need a truckload of money. We need to compete where it matters: On the pitch.

How? Through playing better football. How, exactly? We need a club focus on a style of football from youth to first team. Tactics, formations, roles, positioning, marking, movement. It won't happen immediately and the usual problems remain of better players being poached - but it can happen if we appoint the right people.

Too Altruistic? Perhaps. But if we can't do this and need truckloads of money instead, why do we bother showing up n the first place?

Sorry ozvillafan, but I cannot see how anyone can claim that we can get into the top 6 unless our current investment strategy changes. If PL revolutionised the coaching, tactics, formations etc tomorrow it may bring us some short term entertainment but everyone knows that our squad is just not good enough. We are to dependent on a few key people. If Vlaar sustained a long term injury our defence would be very shaky. Without Benteke (even out of form) even less of threat. We have no one in the middle who can make a difference or change games. Marc Albrighton who many of us have never rated as anything special is now one of the few bright lights in a very poor team. Our defence and midfield are probably the worst we have had for years.

I am not saying we need "truck loads of money" but that at the moment it is seems more like a couple of bucketfuls are being employed. In fact I am also not saying (anymore) we must attain top 6 to be fulfilled as fans.

We are one of 20 clubs in what is supposed to be the top football league in the world acting like a club from the championship, signing championship players and playing championship standard football most of the time.

Yet every home game 34-38000 of us mugs turn up hoping to see just a glimmer of some premier league standard football only to see us win but three games this year, five last season, and only four the season before. The only game we won fair and square this season was against Cardiff and even that was dire. The Baggies game has been the only exciting one all season and that could have easily gone either way and we were lucky to beat man city 3-2. No wonder the Holte has lost its voice - they are probably finding it difficult to stay awake never mind sing!

It is unbelievable that we have won just TWELVE League home games out of 50. We need just two wins out of six to equal last seasons tally but I wonder how many people would bet on it.

I applaud your optimism but cannot see where it comes from. The so called "project" is a joke and PL, RL and PF are either on a fools errand, feeding us BS or living in cloud cuckoo land if they think we can rise again - UNLESS they intend to start spending again in the summer and even then it might be too late and not enough.

Like many I very naively believed that PL could break the mould but the "project" isn't progressing and I do not think it ever will.

Edited February 10, 2014 by MikeMcKenna

[Nabby]

I had unrealistic expectations this season - finishing 10th!

 

 

Me too !!

 

Nice boring midtable , an improvement in performances and better home form instead its the same shit if not worse than last season.