darrenm Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Keeping my eye on the prices of the plug-in Prius 2017. Looks a fantastic car. Currently £29k RRP so hopefully with some competition that'll fall. The (up to) EV range of 39 miles should be plenty to get me to work and back. Been so impressed with my hybrid I doubt I'll go ever go non-EV again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 39 miles?! Jesus christ. I'd probably go for a Zoe or the Ioniq if I were looking to buy one right now, my next car will definitely be full electric rather than a hybrid, but I'm probably 2-3 years from upgrading, so hopefully there's a bit more choice by then. Edited March 13, 2017 by Davkaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, Davkaus said: 39 miles?! Jesus christ. I'd probably go for a Zoe if I were looking to buy one right now, my next car will definitely be full electric rather than a hybrid, but I'm probably 2-3 years from upgrading, so hopefully there's a bit more choice by then. Realistic more like 20-30 depending on conditions. All the PHEVs are low EV only mileage. You can't have a full EV range with an IC engine, the car and weight would be just too large. Hybrid: Very small batteries for EV up to low speed. Only charged by regenerative braking so any extra energy is purely efficiency savings. E.g. Prius PHEV: Hybrid + small EV e.g. Outlander PHEV, Plug-in Prius EV: Huge Li-ion batteries + high torque motors only e.g. Leaf, Zoe, Tesla I'll likely be swapping the Lupo for a Zoe or Leaf. We don't need ICE range in the 2nd car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 When will a range of, say, 150 miles be achievable? In my line of work i'm looking at full electric buses, which have enough charge to do 250km - 320km on one charge (variant depends on if heating is on etc). That is obviously aided by the sheer number of battery packs that can be loaded onto a bus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 40 minutes ago, Xela said: When will a range of, say, 150 miles be achievable? In my line of work i'm looking at full electric buses, which have enough charge to do 250km - 320km on one charge (variant depends on if heating is on etc). That is obviously aided by the sheer number of battery packs that can be loaded onto a bus! Most Tesla model S will do that. It just comes down to cost. Most others are almost 150 miles on a good day. 2018 will be the breakthrough year for EV range. Model 3, Leaf and Hyundai will all be getting towards 200 miles real world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted March 13, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted March 13, 2017 3 hours ago, Stevo985 said: 2.0 Litre Petrol, S-Line Coupe in Scuba Blue Oh and added the Technology pack. I wasn't going to, but the one I test drove had it and it was very impressive. The Virtual Cockpit is amazing Scuba Stevo. Nice 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Xela said: When will a range of, say, 150 miles be achievable? In my line of work i'm looking at full electric buses, which have enough charge to do 250km - 320km on one charge (variant depends on if heating is on etc). That is obviously aided by the sheer number of battery packs that can be loaded onto a bus! The cars coming out now have far bigger ranges, Jaguar I-pace (£60k) coming end of the year aiming for 300 miles + from 1 charge. Tesla knocking out similar. It won't be long before the more "normal" brands have similar ranges in the £20-£30k bracket. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 14, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted March 14, 2017 Girlfriend had her car serviced with Audi today. Got a courtesy car for the day. When she took the courtesy car back she bumped a customer car in the dealership and scratched both cars. Nothing catastrophic, but damage to both vehicles. Does anyone know how this works? I assume all the cost is covered by Audi's insurance which she was put on to drive the car? She's already had to pay £250 excess, but she seems to think the dealer told her they'd be in touch tomorrow to tell her how much it will cost. Surely if she's paid the excess then the insurance covers the rest? Or am i missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: Girlfriend had her car serviced with Audi today. Got a courtesy car for the day. When she took the courtesy car back she bumped a customer car in the dealership and scratched both cars. Nothing catastrophic, but damage to both vehicles. Does anyone know how this works? I assume all the cost is covered by Audi's insurance which she was put on to drive the car? She's already had to pay £250 excess, but she seems to think the dealer told her they'd be in touch tomorrow to tell her how much it will cost. Surely if she's paid the excess then the insurance covers the rest? Or am i missing something? It depends what she signed up for really. Normally even taking a courtesy car will go through her own insurance. She still shouldn't have to pay more than her excess unless there is a clear stipulation in the papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 15, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted March 15, 2017 She definitely got put on their insurance. I've seen the paperwork she signed, and that's why she had to pay Audi the excess directly. I'm thinking it might be a good thing as if it's all covered by their insurance then her own premiums and no claims should be unaffected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 I think courtesy cars are 3rd party only unless you pay extra. So the paperwork saying she was insured may be only for that and they'll want money for the car she was driving to be repaired. But there shouldn't be an excess for the repair to the 3rd party so god knows what they're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 (edited) On 3/13/2017 at 21:08, Genie said: The cars coming out now have far bigger ranges, Jaguar I-pace (£60k) coming end of the year aiming for 300 miles + from 1 charge. Tesla knocking out similar. It won't be long before the more "normal" brands have similar ranges in the £20-£30k bracket. Pure maths on the ranges. To get the 200+ mile ranges on big cars like model S and exec 4x4s you need 80kWh+. The Tesla model S starts at 70kWh and goes up to 100 (p70, p80 etc) For a Jaguar f pace to get 300 miles it'll need a 100kWh battery like a p100d The Hyundai ioniq gets 100 miles out of a 24kWh pack as it's so efficient being low weight. The new Zoe has a 40kWh, and the new e-Golf 36 so they'll be around a real world 150 miles. The cost of the batteries are purely linear. They currently cost about $150 / kWh so the battery of a Tesla on its own costs $15000. So for EVs to be affordable they have to find the sweet spot in the range. By next year they reckon it'll be about $100/kWh and by 2021 EVs will be cheaper to buy than equivalent range conventional engine cars. So in 3 years time ICE cars will be pointless. Not a good idea to buy a new car any time soon. Edited March 15, 2017 by darrenm bit more accurate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 15, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 15, 2017 On 13/03/2017 at 16:51, Stevo985 said: 2.0 Litre Petrol, S-Line Coupe in Scuba Blue Oh and added the Technology pack. I wasn't going to, but the one I test drove had it and it was very impressive. The Virtual Cockpit is amazing Scuba Steve Blue? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 15, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted March 15, 2017 1 hour ago, darrenm said: I think courtesy cars are 3rd party only unless you pay extra. So the paperwork saying she was insured may be only for that and they'll want money for the car she was driving to be repaired. But there shouldn't be an excess for the repair to the 3rd party so god knows what they're doing. Hmmm i think its comprehensive. I know they had a clause in it that said if she chose to use her own insurance then it had to be fully comp. Who knows, I'll see what they say when they ring her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 15, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 15, 2017 I hired a car the other week, they gave me the choice of £1k excess or paying an additional fee up front. Utter arse wombles. You have to pay it because the thought of paying out £1k excess is just sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlwaysAVFC Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 37 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: I hired a car the other week, they gave me the choice of £1k excess or paying an additional fee up front. Utter arse wombles. You have to pay it because the thought of paying out £1k excess is just sickening. Pretty sure you can just sort out the extra insurance for yourself, which is defintely worth doing if it is more than a day or 2 as their fees soon make the car very expensive to hire. Although you probably would have to pay the excess until your insurance paid out so £1k is a pretty big hit even if temporarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 1 hour ago, darrenm said: By next year they reckon it'll be about $100/kWh and by 2021 EVs will be cheaper to buy than equivalent range conventional engine cars. So in 3 years time ICE cars will be pointless. Not a good idea to buy a new car any time soon. Hmmm, I’m fairly sure I saw personal jet packs and hover boots advertised in a similar manner on a 1981 edition of Tomorrow’s World. EV is clearly becoming more and more accessible, but in my experience things reducing down in cost to be cheaper than the thing they replace rarely really happens. To look at my own little family example. I'm not wedded to burning fuel on the road, I'm happy for it to be burnt at a power station where I can't see it. So I would be happy to buy an EV equivalent car. Equivalent in price and functionality. The urban run around car we have is a Toyota Aygo. Tax free, £130 per month and currently averaging about 70 miles to the petrol gallon. If there is an equivalent sub £10k EV car available in 3 years time I would happily consider it. Then there’s the millennium falcon that I’m driving up and down the motorways. I guess I’m averaging about 30,000 miles a year often carrying either the whole family or kit for my job of work. So again, if there is an estate car capable of 30,000 miles a year that doesn’t involve me programming building trades around my need to recharge batteries, I’ll be mightily impressed. I’m not saying it won’t happen. I’m just saying it won’t. Not least, to have a car in 3 years that would be priced to undercut traditional cars, would kick the guts out of the resale value of any EV car bought today. So perhaps you could say, if EV cars will be that good and cheap in 3 years, you’d be mad to buy one today. (I’m not really a dinosaur, I know they are coming, just no jet packs by 2021 imo) Incidentally, does anybody know when we are due the first 'scandal' expose on what happens to used EV car fuel cells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 15, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 15, 2017 32 minutes ago, AlwaysAVFC said: Pretty sure you can just sort out the extra insurance for yourself, which is defintely worth doing if it is more than a day or 2 as their fees soon make the car very expensive to hire. Although you probably would have to pay the excess until your insurance paid out so £1k is a pretty big hit even if temporarily. Not worth the hassle for £15 though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Incidentally, does anybody know when we are due the first 'scandal' expose on what happens to used EV car fuel cells? didn't Clarkson cover this on Top gear a few years back ? ... part of the segment about how they mine the nickel in Canada , smelt it and kill a few babies by producing acid rain as by product , ship it to Europe to be refined whilst killing a few whales who run aground as they get confused by the ships sonar , then shipped to China killing a few more sea creatures to become Nickel foam , then shipped to Japan for assembly , before being shipped to the US to be purchased by a trendy Hollwood star who can preach to us I'm paraphrasing slightly , but the end of that segment then said the battery lasts 100,000 miles and then get disposed of by going back to a smelting plant ( and the acid rain scenario again) Edited March 15, 2017 by tonyh29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Hmmm, I’m fairly sure I saw personal jet packs and hover boots advertised in a similar manner on a 1981 edition of Tomorrow’s World. EV is clearly becoming more and more accessible, but in my experience things reducing down in cost to be cheaper than the thing they replace rarely really happens. To look at my own little family example. I'm not wedded to burning fuel on the road, I'm happy for it to be burnt at a power station where I can't see it. So I would be happy to buy an EV equivalent car. Equivalent in price and functionality. The urban run around car we have is a Toyota Aygo. Tax free, £130 per month and currently averaging about 70 miles to the petrol gallon. If there is an equivalent sub £10k EV car available in 3 years time I would happily consider it. Then there’s the millennium falcon that I’m driving up and down the motorways. I guess I’m averaging about 30,000 miles a year often carrying either the whole family or kit for my job of work. So again, if there is an estate car capable of 30,000 miles a year that doesn’t involve me programming building trades around my need to recharge batteries, I’ll be mightily impressed. I’m not saying it won’t happen. I’m just saying it won’t. Not least, to have a car in 3 years that would be priced to undercut traditional cars, would kick the guts out of the resale value of any EV car bought today. So perhaps you could say, if EV cars will be that good and cheap in 3 years, you’d be mad to buy one today. (I’m not really a dinosaur, I know they are coming, just no jet packs by 2021 imo) Incidentally, does anybody know when we are due the first 'scandal' expose on what happens to used EV car fuel cells? All fair points. The 3 year thing is always going to be a bit ambiguous and certain use cases will fare better than others to start. There's already an equivalent EV that will save you money on your Aygo. This for example http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201612070400810?model=LEAF&sort=price-asc&make=NISSAN&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&postcode=b61&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=New&page=1 at £7k on a 5 year loan will be £130 a month yet will cost you nothing in fuel. You won't ever have to go to the petrol station and you can fill up at home. It's what I'm in the process of changing to for our urban runaround from the current Lupo. As for burning stuff to create power, that's a choice of governments, not a requirement. Germany recently generated all of their electricity demand from renewables, and we could scale out solar and wind, backed by some battery farms with smart grid and vehicle to grid to provide power for a huge increase in EV usage. Lots of countries have to pay people to take excess power when their renewables oversupply so we have plenty to go around. I agree with your point about being mad to buy an EV car now. That's my point, I'm including everything in with it. It's all really exciting and a reason to be positive. This stuff works, it's improving very quickly and it's going to improve everything. Finally, the batteries can and do get recycled. Even when not good enough for the car any more (after hundreds of thousands of miles), they're still perfectly fine for grid or home storage. After their very long life, the rare earth metals can be extracted and used in new batteries. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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