GrassyNoel

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I think the notion that people who are concerned, are only taking " 5 results " in isolation as reasoning, is a bit of a disservice if i'm honest.

It will have been compounded by trends which some people have been concerned about for quite some time, YES, even when we were doing better.

Those concerns/trends are now presenting themselves with a combo of performances and results.

It's obviously easier to paper over the cracks when results are better.

5-5 v Forest for me and I was also ecstatic that Derby beat Leeds in the playoff semis: I was convinced it was going to be us v Leeds in the final and I really didn’t fancy us at all against them.

21 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

I find myself really in a odd predicament with Smith and our current position, it isn't something I'm used to as I'm normally very finite in my thinking. I'm not calling for him to go but I no longer have confidence in his ability to continue taking us forward,  yes I know that makes me sound like Gary Neville but bare with me and I'll explain.

With Bruce I was vociferous and pretty unrelenting in my opposition and condemnation of his managerial approach, even when the results were relatively position. I knew where I stood on Bruce, that he wasn't a good manager and that he ultimately wasn't good for the club even when we were winning games. I knew it would end badly and he was damaging rather than building the club. I've been similarly steadfast on all our other managers post O'Neill, none of whom I've rated or wanted in the job including Houllier because they've all been bad appointments, Smith is the first good one since O'Neill which is a shocking indictment of those who have run our club.

Thinking about this and O'Neill made me start to draw comparison's between their spells in charge at B6, between what they inherited, their strengths and ultimately their shortcomings and the topic of glass ceilings imagined or otherwise.

Smith and O'Neill aren't similar, in fact they are polar opposites in almost every way. One had a stellar playing career, the other didn't. One was brash, abrasive, combative and argumentative the other is polite, considered, congenial and frankly quite clearly a lovely guy when the other frankly just clearly isn't. Both men, with the benefit of significant financial backing that surpassed those who had gone before them transformed the club, dragging it out of its slumber and significantly improving our performance and standing. 

With O'Neill, for me doubts about his ability to take us further started during his 3rd season, I felt he couldn't take us further. It was an hugely unpopular opinion and one I wasn't very forthcoming with but I wasn't alone, that summer he was given a lot of money to try and take us to the next level. We again finished 6th and the following summer it all fell apart, the impact of which none of us could have imagined and which took us 10 years to recover from. I often wonder how different things could have been had Lerner had a more aware man at the helm than Faulkner, how different things could have been if they had replaced O'Neill after his 3rd season and we not pissed a fortune up a wall the summer before his final season. It is the story of Villa, we are the what might have been club.

Some 10 years or so years later I find myself wondering are we in a similar position with Smith? We all know what he has achieved, none of us need to recap that but neither should that be dismissed or downplayed in any way.

The question is can he continue the progress or has he, as I'd argue O'Neill had done 12 months before his departure hit the proverbial glass ceiling?

Many of those dismayed with criticism of Smith in recent days, on here and elsewhere, have reacted as if the criticism is the result of the last 2 or 3 games or the 9 games of this season. I can't speak for others but for me, the seeds of doubt go back much further.

An element of doubt has always been there such as been the dependence upon Grealish throughout his tenure, the disparity in results and performances with and without our former talisman have always made assessing Smith difficult. That isn't to detract from his tangible impact on the club but it does make it hard, for me at least, to know how much is due to who.

We started last season on fire then post Christmas and in the absence of Jack it went very wrong. That was when doubts grew for me, our inability to find a way to play in his prolonged absence was hugely alarming and I wondered then if as a club we may need to face difficult decisions in order to progress futher. While last season was an improvement on the one that went before, given our start I think we under achieved. 

This summer came and went, as did Grealish and so did £95m to try and replace him and the undoubted void he left behind. Now I'm not going to dwell on our summer recruitment, it doesn't need a recap and I've expressed my views on it several times already and I'm sure nobody needs hear them again so excuse me skipping to the here and now.

I know people will point at injuries, at summer disruptions and they are valid points. However we've seemingly gone from being almost entirely dependant upon Grealish to being almost entirely dependant upon Bailey coming in and making everything make sense. That to me is hugely alarming and I'm afraid leaves me questioning Smith.

The departure of Grealish was always going to be damaging to us but we had the later half of last season to try and find a way to play without him, we had the summer and we've had a quarter of a season and we still seem no closure to finding a solution.

Sure some are being reactionary to the Wolves and Arsenal games, no doubt, there are though very legitimate concerns that underpin others comments and they are predicated on far more than 2/3 or 9 games. 

I'm not personally calling for Smith to go, I want stability at the club, I want longevity of managers, ultimately I want more than anything Smith to work out. For this to be a blimp and for one of our own to continue to lead the club forward.

Chopping and changing managers is no guarantee of anything unless you are Chelsea and I think we can all agree there aren't exactly an array of options out there that are attractive. With Bruce for me there was no gamble, he had to go and should have gone sooner, we are not in that position with Smith. I am though left with a nagging doubt, a feeling I had with O'Neill in that 3rd season and it just won't go away.

We could win the next 2 or 3 games and it would still be there I think, it didn't come over night and neither will it go over night although if we beat West Ham I'm sure many will proclaim those who raised doubts were wrong.

Smith needs results and fast but more than that he needs to show he is capable of leading a winning team in the absence of you know who, over to you Dean.

I'm off back to lurk in shadows again.
 

 

Magnificent post. It’s where I am too, especially the point about moving from relying on Joe to relying on Bailey (or danger of).

1 minute ago, Django_Zooms said:

Villa's best season since 2010 was when no fans were allowed inside any stadia. Are NSWE rich enough to take control of all Chinese livestock inter-breeding...?

Or level 4 labs….

FFS

Anyway, relax. Arsenal will collapse with 10 minutes to go and we’ll win 3-2. 

Trouble is we’ll hang our excuses on that pen. We’ve got nothing less than we deserve. 

Leave a player up for an out ball option Villa FFS

16 minutes ago, nick76 said:

The Newcastle thing is interesting because we obviously know they wont get the big players initially if they do decide to go that buy everything route, which I dont know how they can with FFP and how the elite clubs will fight that.  If they do go for the big players, the big players will most likely turn them down because they can get the same deal from the elite clubs anyway for example we already know Mbappe has his heart on Real Madrid.  So if newcastle go down the buying big, they will first have to buy second elite level players, hot prospects or fading stars.  The thing that has interested in the short time since the take over the feed has been dampened a lot....talks of Eddie Howe taking over and now the rumour is Fonseca who while building a reputation really doesnt wow me considering the excitement of the Newcastle takeover...I know Spurs wanted him but just seems an anti-climax.  There was also a lot of rumours that the transfer kitty for January would be smaller to start off with...more around the 50m rather than the 150m thought there would be.  This could be just downing the prices that are likely to come from selling clubs but is interesting.  Would seem they want to build something rather than buy the league and things may not move as quickly as Newcastle fans would like.  Also interesting to see what the PL does and how the elite teams block them if they do go on a spending spree.  I dont think Newcastle will be competing for Europe this season or next though for us to be worried about, there is too much to do there.

Exactly. Having the money is one thing, being able to spend it is another. They'll be in shape long term, but short term needs solid steps, much like we've shown. Howe or Potter would be great for them I'd say.

23 minutes ago, nick76 said:

It was amateurish, it was a complete implosion and an embarrassment for us all and I'm still not over it.  I think the larger picture though has been completely blown out of proportion, even a couple hours later after the Brentford v Chelsea game, Gary Neville said some very positive things about us.  We feel the embarrassment but the wider community outside of the Villa bubble has moved on and it was just a great come back by Wolves with Villa giving away some cheap goals, I dont think it was a long term advert for Villa and certainly not a valid reason for Grealish to leave (which is a whole different conversation).  We feel it more because it happened to us but to the wider football community it's not seen as the end of the world for Villa type thing.

I hope the players feel queasy and use it to batter Arsenal on Friday.  Us fans have hurt the most but the in context of the bigger picture I think it has been overblown.

You're right - it's a lot of petulance on my part. I'll get over it.

Thanks - I needed that.

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

We are all clinging to it being a freak occurence, but too many similar situations have happened in the past, not exactly the same but similar.....with probably different players and formations.

I am not blaming Dean Smith for the subs, but I am questioning the overall mentality and application to the last 15-20 minutes.

I have no idea on the fitness or out of gas possibilities, so I assume that was ok.

The sad thing for me is....I couldn't see us doing it to them....They swamped us and we stood for it like " The three card trick"......It was immature and wimp like.

I have not changed my opinion of the season, probably where we finished last season, I see no improvement on that, depending what happens in the Jan Window....and if we carry on with the win one, lose one syndrome, 50- 55 points is about where we will finish.

 

It was amateurish and small-time. It was a dreadful advert for us as a club. It felt like many, many steps backward. It annoyingly further vindicated Joe's decision to leave, and I really hate it for that.

Of course all teams lose, but the manner of it still makes we feel queasy four days later.

17 hours ago, villabromsgrove said:

I've just had a three way call with two of my sons and I was impressed by some of the chat about where Villa currently are.

Whatever our individual feelings are about how Villa and Smith are performing, we've been discussing the fact that we (the supporters) aren't the people that matter.

NSWE took over Villa with a business plan for where they wanted to take AVFC. Look at the current stats .... Are they impressed with progress right now?

Ignore the stats of the last three years in terms of the future (tomorrow onwards). Smith has done well to get us to where we are, but are there concrete signs that this season's targets are going to be met?

Edens and Sawiris are not prepared to stand still. It isn't in their business plan.

Can anyone tell me what Smith's formation and plan is going forward? How will we be playing next week, next month, after Christmas?

We can hope Dean comes up with the right answers, but does anyone really believe that we will become a consistent team this season? We can speculate but we just don't know, will our owners settle for the uncertainty?

I mentioned Edens before Sawiris earlier and I did this because of Edens incisive and ruthless joint owner style with the Bucks. NSWE have a plan and it's not about love, loyalty and cosiness. It's about progress.

If the answer up until now has been only about buying a couple of better players each transfer window, then do we think they will now ignore the ultimate potential of the man in charge of the team?

I've asked a number of questions after a good long chat with my sons, I would love to hear what you guys think.

Good post. Ultimately, that's the point. The talk of Europe is either that - talk - or it's what they genuinely want and expect us to achieve. It's up to them, they own us. Our opinions are interesting and (largely) fun to discuss - surely the point of a forum like this - but we're all guessing, venting and spitballing - plus there seem to be some implicit Blasphemy Laws being created (on both sides of the debate) which get in the way.

It'll be interesting to see what moves Newcastle make now Bruce has gone, and I mention this as I strongly suspect whatever direction they take will inform the future direction of our own managerial debate e.g. if they go large for a Zidane profile manager we'll have fans who are cross we haven't done similar and shown more ambition, and if they go are modest and for a longer term growth / youth policy it'll underscore that maybe we are on the right track and being sensible. If they do both...hmmm.

5 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

I think most of us are

Indeed - success for Smith is success for Villa, and we all benefit.

Problem is, results such as Saturday's surface an unease about Smith that some feel; we cannot point to Smith's winning history for reassurance.We can point at solid progress from where we were to where we are though. We just have to see if we can take the next steps with him.

We look so ponderous at times, then play some really lovely, incisive stuff. Can't work us out at the moment.

4 hours ago, rjw63 said:

I care about shutting their yammering idiotic fans up.

Slightly related I guess: I deleted Twitter this week. It's been absolutely glorious. Thought I'd miss the Villa news but I don't, and the lack of idiotic nonsense from all and sundry is total bliss, like turning off a TV that's blaring nothing but white noise. Highly recommended.

On topic: 2-1 Villa, Ings on the board. UTV. 

9 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

As I said in my other response. I do not have a chip on my shoulder re DS and nor do I get one. I also suggested to look at the redcafe post match thread on Man Utd v Villa and it can be clearly seen that Man Utd fans attribute Smith with a lot of plaudits for the performance on Saturday. Also the media is extremely complementary about Smith and how Villa are doing. I don't subscribe to an inferiority complex with regard to Villa or Smith

Very true about RedCafe - very fair and decent comments re Villa.

Best Villa content by far for me. Love it. Worth tuning in just for the Subbuteo setup

2 minutes ago, est1874 said:

The reports on Football Insider and other clickbait rags make little sense. Saying he's under great pressure after 4 games is daft.

I think he has a lot of grace built up with the owners and he is well-liked and trusted. It would take a minimum of half a season of consistent struggle for him to come under the kind of pressure being speculated on in those reports.

FWIW I like Dean a lot and think he's probably the right man for us currently. I think he has his limitations but there isn't a laundry list of better managers who would want the job and who could come in straight away and improve us.

My sentiments exactly. 

In case anyone has missed the fount of accurate football info that is Football Insider...

https://www.footballinsider247.com/sources-smith-fighting-for-his-job-at-aston-villa-as-manager-masterplan-revealed/

Quote

A Villa source has told Football Insider that Smith will be fighting for his job if the club do not climb up the table from their current 12th position

13 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

Apparently, we’re after someone with experience of working in Europe. 
 

Farage is at a loose end...

On 13/08/2021 at 22:38, Villarocker said:

This past week, McGinn, Martinez, Tuanzebe and Konsa have given interviews where they've said that this season is all about getting into Europe.

I think that Grealish leaving may have alarmed the owners to the fact that the best players at the club won't wait around forever to play at the highest level and they've since emphasised to the players the importance of finishing in the European places otherwise there may have to be further player changes required to try to get to where they want us to be. 

Hopefully, this will be the season where we reach Europe and attract even better quality players next summer. 

Agreed. Saturday will have underlined that imo. UTV.

Only just sunk in that both those passes last night were with different feet...jeez. Some player.

It's worth the money just to annoy certain PinkUn posters.

In seriousness I'd be interested to see what our coaches could get out of him. The lad has his moments.

Good for him. Jack has a right to reply - anyone with a backbone would want their side heard. I'd say just once though, and this is as far as he should take it unless directly asked (interviews etc).

We can't really help stumbling across newspaper garbage on antisocial media, but anyone who actively buys a newspaper these days needs their head checking.

So chuffed. Chuffed with his abilities coming to help our club improve, chuffed to have beaten Arsenal and made them "embarrassed", chuffed to have riled some of the saltier Norridge fans (petty I know but blimey there's some bad feeling towards us from some quarters there - I had no idea).

Also hoping it's a good signal to other players we may be after: we're serious, and we want you to come along for this exciting journey.