VILLAMARV Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 2 minutes ago, villakram said: Black Sea, strategic location par excellence since forever w.r.t. Russia. Who'd have thought that a warm weather port on the western shores of Russia would be so high up on Russia's agenda? Controlling the Sea of Marmara is even more pertinent from a NATO perspective after the annexing of the naval bases in the Crimea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 12 dead in a bus explosion in Tunis also today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 24, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 24, 2015 2 minutes ago, snowychap said: 12 dead in a bus explosion in Tunis also today. Terrible just horrible. Spent some time there a few years ago, nice people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 15 hours ago, snowychap said: NATO not Europe, no? Wouldn't the result of that be the end of NATO? In the case of Article 5 of the NATO Treaty (an attack on one is an attack on all) the member states can still decide what if any level of assistance they wish to provide. Therefore European nations can individually say "no thanks, guv." If Turkey wants to start dropping Russian aircraft that are posing no threat to its own territory then they can take the consequences. It wouldn't be the end of NATO but might possibly be the end of Turkey in NATO. As Ankara is a direct sponsor of Al Qaeda that would be no bad thing, imo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 25, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 25, 2015 4 hours ago, Awol said: In the case of Article 5 of the NATO Treaty (an attack on one is an attack on all) the member states can still decide what if any level of assistance they wish to provide. Therefore European nations can individually say "no thanks, guv." If Turkey wants to start dropping Russian aircraft that are posing no threat to its own territory then they can take the consequences. It wouldn't be the end of NATO but might possibly be the end of Turkey in NATO. As Ankara is a direct sponsor of Al Qaeda that would be no bad thing, imo. It says http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm Quote The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security . the difference is that it says each of them "will assist". So "doing nothing" is not what the article says or allows. It does though allow wriggle room for the scope of the response, and I think that like you imply, there would be full use of that, if Turkey brings it on itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 1 hour ago, blandy said: such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force Is the sentence I had in mind. Enough wiggle room to drive a bus through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 6 hours ago, Awol said: In the case of Article 5 of the NATO Treaty (an attack on one is an attack on all) the member states can still decide what if any level of assistance they wish to provide. Therefore European nations can individually say "no thanks, guv." If Turkey wants to start dropping Russian aircraft that are posing no threat to its own territory then they can take the consequences. It wouldn't be the end of NATO but might possibly be the end of Turkey in NATO. As Ankara is a direct sponsor of Al Qaeda that would be no bad thing, imo. Effectively rendering the collective defence part moot. Now, you might be right that other countries wouldn't step up when it comes to it if they decide it's not immediately in their interests - you probably are - but where would that put the remaining members of NATO? Surely it would have them in the position that they couldn't rely upon the collective defence part of the treaty and therefore it (the treaty) is, in effect, no more than a loose military alliance and a military consumer bloc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 25, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 25, 2015 I think (and all views are valid, I guess) that AWOL's words "what if any [assistance]...European nations can individually say "no thanks, guv." are inaccurate. I also don't think that's what Jon actually really meant, either. The NATO members are obliged to assist fellow member nations if they are attacked (article 6 defines what that actually means). They would have to step up, but the extent to which they would do so is hypothetical and would depend on the nature of the attack on [Turkey]. I write that to explain that "the collective defence part" is definitely not moot and NATO is not just a "loose military alliance" and a "military consumer bloc". I don't believe anyone has ever attacked a NATO member and I think the treaty is taken as being genuinely of force and value by nations that might otherwise act in a more hostile fashion. Like I say my view is no more valid than anyone else's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Without going all lefty on this, it is possible to see how Russia can feel like a victim of NATO here. We are constantly told NATO is a defence. Would it look like that if you were the other side of, da'fence? NATO members include: Albania Bulgaria Croatia Czech Rep Estonia Hungary Latvia Lithuania Poland Romania Slovakia Slovenia Turkey here's a picture of some american troops: But yes, it's Russia that's always 'flexing its muscles'. I'm not saying anyone here is innocent. But given a few hundred years of Russian history. I can see how they might have a different view of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 25, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 25, 2015 4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I'm not saying anyone here is innocent. But given a few hundred years of Russian history. I can see how they might have a different view of the world. Totally. I think (I can't recall where I read it) that when somewhere, possibly Estonia, joined NATO, the Russians weren't happy, and NATO assured them that NATO would not put loads of soldiers and stuff there, right on Russia's border...then went and did exactly that. That said, Putin is corrupt, violent, corrupt, corrupt and did I mention corrupt, and Russia's actions in terms of murders of opponents, dissidents, people exposing corruption, the actions in Ukraine and elsewhere - it's not a good place. Their behaviour is not that of a peaceful nation. Putin is dangerous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Without going all lefty on this, it is possible to see how Russia can feel like a victim of NATO here. We are constantly told NATO is a defence. Would it look like that if you were the other side of, da'fence? NATO members include: Albania Bulgaria Croatia Czech Rep Estonia Hungary Latvia Lithuania Poland Romania Slovakia Slovenia Turkey here's a picture of some american troops: But yes, it's Russia that's always 'flexing its muscles'. I'm not saying anyone here is innocent. But given a few hundred years of Russian history. I can see how they might have a different view of the world. most of those countries were "Russian" very aggression ... I can see why the countries are keen to have NATO troops present , it's sort of a modern day equiv of building a wall to keep dirty marauding Jocks out of England Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Tony, I can see why little countries bordering Russia would want to have american troops stationed there. Absolutely. I bet Ukraine wishes they'd been a bit quicker off the mark. Georgia too. By that same measure, I can see why Russia decided it would grab Crimea before the americans did. Again, absolutely not right. Absolutely corrupt. Putin is a psycho, and I think I mean that literally. But you have a country there that has a victim mentality as part of its national psyche. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 One of the two Austrian girls that travelled to Syria to join IS. Poor girl realised her mistake and tried to flee. Reports say she's been beaten to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 tragic story... but what did she really expect? What an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) On 24/11/2015, 15:48:42, Awol said: @chrisp65 ...Stand by for an S-400 deployment to Syria and the KRG... ...and there you go.. Quote Roland Oliphant @RolandOliphant 4h4 hours ago Countermeasures: fighter escorts for bombers, missile cruiser Moskva off Latakia, & S-400 missiles (Russia's newest SAMs) deployed to Syria. No more free hits on Russia for Johnny Turk - and hopefully an airstrike free future for the poor bloody Kurds. Edited November 25, 2015 by Awol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted November 25, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted November 25, 2015 50 minutes ago, Xann said: One of the two Austrian girls that travelled to Syria to join IS. Poor girl realised her mistake and tried to flee. Reports say she's been beaten to death. Well, it's hard to be too harsh on someone who's apparently dead but what a numpty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 6 minutes ago, PieFacE said: Well, it's hard to be too harsh on someone who's apparently dead but what a numpty. I know. "thanks for the induction to the ISIS way of life, however, I've decided its not for me afterall. Could you please point me towards the nearest bus stop as I'd like to try and catch tonights flight home" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Xela Posted November 25, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted November 25, 2015 Its just mental. Why on earth would young women voluntarily go somewhere where they would be treated like second class citizens by the men? They've been brought up in one of the best cities in the world, Vienna (according to many standard of life surveys) after their parents were taken in as Bosnian refugees, but rather than enjoy freedom and democracy in the west, they would rather go to Syria and be treated like shit. Its desperately sad but I struggle to have any sympathy. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted November 25, 2015 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted November 25, 2015 1 hour ago, Genie said: tragic story... but what did she really expect? What an idiot. Well yes...but. I mean teenagers do stupid things. Mostly they don't get killed for it. Yes if you join up with a bunch of medieval murderers you're likely to end up dead, but it's just a shame all round. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) You want to make a difference... Boycott Turkey. What if European tourism in Turkey dropped to approx. zero? Our politicians may be constrained but we are not. At the end of the day, it's the dollars that matter and if they flow to Greece/Portugal instead of Turkey for the next couple of yrs, watch the pivot that has to occur. The Turkish people just supported that idiot with Sultanic delusions in the recent elections. If his continuing policy hits them in the pocket, that will change. I would add to Boycott Saudi too, but who in their right mind wants to go there. Qatar and their shiney airline are also ripe for targeting. One would like to add in the US too, but that fish is much more complex to fry. Edited November 25, 2015 by villakram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts