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The banker loving, baby-eating Tory party thread (regenerated)


blandy

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On ‎10‎/‎02‎/‎2016 at 21:03, Xann said:

A doctor talking about stuff, like liars and strikes

So Tory MP says something = Lair

Some junior Doctor says something = the truth , the whole truth and nothing but the truth ... however as she isn't interested in the money (her own words) presumably she can refuse it when it is offered to her ?

But  that apart  , I know Nurses , Doctors etc are untouchables in the public eye but  I've not seen a proper discussion detailing everything ( just like the EU where that debate also seems to be missing)

I can't profess to be an expert on this dispute but from what I could see on the web once you dug a bit deeper   ..... The review body are suggesting a 14.9 % increase for Junior Doctors in order to balance out the loss of overtime  as I understand it 13.5 % has been offered  ( on a 40K salary that works out at £560 a year difference   ? ) ...meanwhile Dr's will no longer be "forced"  to work 90 hour weeks and capped at 72 hours  ... not sure about you but I'd take a pay "cut" of £560 a year to work 18 hours less per week

I'd seen on Facebook  * ( yeah yeah I know Facebook isn't exactly a reputable source )  a junior doctor  (quoted below  ) suggesting it gave them a pay cut of 13.4 %  ... factor in the rise offered of 13.5% then doesn't that put them on the same pay give or take ?

 

Based on the existing salary and my current rota per year I work:
8 Saturday days(0800-2030), 8 Saturday nights (2000-0830), 8 Sunday days, 8 Sunday nights and 32 weekday nights along with other lates and standard (8-1730) days averaging 46 hours per week across the year, a fairly intense on call rota.

This qualifies me for 1A rota and my current salary at CT2 is £31 838 basic with a 50% supplement taking this to £47757 per year.

In three years time a CT2 on the same rota (who will have moved outside their pay protection baseline assuming they are an FY1 currently) will earn (based on the information given in the contract offer) £37400 basic but only £3947 extra for the antisocial hours involved giving £41347 gross, a pay cut (not to me personally but to the role which will be identical) of 13.4%.

 I read elsewhere that on a given ward if one Doctor exceeds a 14 hour day the entire ward staff are then also entitled to the same extra pay \ overtime or whatever , regardless of them not having worked those 14 hours , it's some form of fine imposed on the hospital ??  ( it's along those lines I'm quoting it from memory as I cant find the original) ... But what seems apparent when you read the various websites is that there seem to be so many different grades , pay rates  in the NHS , surely it makes sense to standardise these  , to redo these contracts

LBC radio today had a junior Doctor on who also said it's not about the money it's about this government privatising the NHS  ..if this is the case why weren't they out on strike when Labour started the privatisation process under Burnham , why have the only suddenly now developed this desire to save the NHS ? ...

 

finally this it's not about the money thing starts to look as false as the MP's on Question time yesterday when asked about the 10% pay increases that they don't want but have to accept as the rules say they have to 

 

I've no doubt I'm wrong on all of this .. but it's a least a start of the debate , show me where it's wrong  ..I'll be happy with that rather than the pointless comments like the Torys want to kill us  all and the amusing replacing Hunts surname with the letter C at the front

 

* I can't link to the Facebook page as the person doesn't share info outside of friends so it didn't work  

 

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I thought the comedian on the end of the panel got it about right, when he said that both sides were claiming to be close to a deal, saying there was so little in it that the other side should relent....well if it's so little for the other side to give, why is it a big deal for either side.

Then there's the baby elephant in the room, working Saturdays on straight pay is all about saving lives?? So, what happened to Sunday? Which will still be an overtime day?

I don't think either side are coming out of this particularly well. 

Doctors are a bit full of themselves, Hunt is a word removed. it's a bad mix

 

 

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a lot of companies work Saturday as a normal day though don't they ?

I'm guessing IF it is their normal working pattern  it doesn't entitle them to anything extra ... as long as it's made clear at the outset , which you could argue isn't the case with NHS staff based on precedent  ?

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It's about human resources being stretched to breaking point rather than take home wages.

There's plenty on the net, but I'm shutting shop and going home to get wasted.

If you really want to know what's going on Tone, I'll meet you for a pint sometime.

My other half works for the Kingston PCT. She'll tell you a thing or two about how it's being run into the ground, even in Surrey.

 

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21 minutes ago, Xann said:

If you really want to know what's going on Tone, I'll meet you for a pint sometime.

 I'd happily met you for a pint sometime ... but I'd rather not do politics ... even blandy leaves his copy of the Guardian at home whenever we've met ( along with his wallet :P )

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41 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I thought the comedian on the end of the panel got it about right

was it me or was the audience quite sympathetic to Nigel last night  ? apart from the woman who let rip at him  :)

I guess the irony in an Aussie living here saying we should stop immigration wasn't lost on everyone ?

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6 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

 I'd happily met you for a pint sometime ... but I'd rather not do politics ... even blandy leaves his copy of the Guardian at home whenever we've met ( along with his wallet :P )

That's an absolutely appalling slur, Tony. I demand a retraction....... I buy the Independent (which the lizard people are going to close down :( ) otherwise, fair comment ;)

Anyway, on the Doctors thing, I think there's kind of a couple of "bleeding' obvious" things which tend to point towards siding with the Doctors.

Firstly, 7 day NHS - this is a good thing, I've seen myself, unfortunately the level of care at non-weekdays is not what people should have to expect. So if there are going to be more doctors working over the weekend (and more nurses, cleaners, technicians, radiographers, etc.) then that's good. But, that doesn't mean taking Doctors (etc.) from a Wednesday or tuesday and putting them to work on a Sunday - that just makes weekday cover worse - no overall gain. So the first thing to do would be to get more staff, surely? Which will require either more money (which the Gov't are not providing for that purpose) or paying lower wages (to more people).

For Doctors to go on strike, on a 98% yes vote, suggests that they are seriously pissed off. Doctors are by definition educated and intelligent people. They can read contract proposals and overwhelmingly understand how they affect them, in their individual circumstances.

The second major big thing is that the Gov't decided to propose something. They decided to make the change. It is incumbent on them to come up with something workable, rather than to get to the position where recruitment is down, Doctors are leaving, strikes are taking place and so on. The onus has to be with Hunt. He's utterly ballsed it up. You can see the lying and deception and politicking in what he does. The latest thing claiming all these NHS execs supported imposition of the contract - they've denied that furiously. Why lie like that? More interested in public opinion than sorting it out. It's terrible.

I would believe a Doctor over a politician every day of the week. When it's all Doctors, plus Consultants, nurses and the rest of the staff (other than perhaps managers) that makes me more certain that Hunt is to blame.

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20 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

was it me or was the audience quite sympathetic to Nigel last night  ? apart from the woman who let rip at him  :)

I guess the irony in an Aussie living here saying we should stop immigration wasn't lost on everyone ?

I thought the white middle aged Aussie wanting to curb immigration needed a reality check right in the kisser.

It was all about context last night with Nigel. He was utterly wrong in some of his 'facts', but has the skill of lacking any humility or embarrassment so just plowed on through. He was attacking the Labour leader, so he was on a bit of an easy ride. Plus of course, half the audience was from little england just down the road from Carmarthen.

Crabb, the tory Secretary of State for Wales, based in Westminster, appeared slightly surprised that a question came up on saving steel, didn't have anything to say about the Swansea energy project (he literally shrugged and looked away) and confessed to 'not knowing the specifics relevant to Wales' on a health question.

That's the job for me, 6 figure salary, 6 storey office in Westminster, no need to brush up on the basics before a TV programme. There's a man stealing a good living. 

Thought it was a fairly weak show last night.

 

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18 minutes ago, blandy said:

Doctors are leaving

even that is difficult to truly validate , Google seems to confirm the trend of them leaving but one search result has a headline of one third , the one  underneath a half  , the one underneath says they are thinking of leaving and the one underneath that said that immigrants are to blame and Diana was the Queen of our hearts

 

further down a search result from 2010 suggests 23 % of Doctors leave after their 2 year training course ... if we were to go with the 1/3 figure now being quoted  , it's a 10 % increase  since before the Tories killed the NHS .. still a  trend but it's not quite the same headline grabbing as a third leaving  ....

so in summary Doctors have always left the NHS but currently slightly more are  ??

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4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Crabb, the tory Secretary of State for Wales, based in Westminster, appeared slightly surprised that a question came up on saving steel, didn't have anything to say about the Swansea energy project (he literally shrugged and looked away) and confessed to 'not knowing the specifics relevant to Wales' on a health question.

and there was me being quite impressed with Crabb and thinking he should enter the race for Leader when Dave stands down  :blush:

 

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51 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

 I'd happily met you for a pint sometime ... but I'd rather not do politics ... even blandy leaves his copy of the Guardian at home whenever we've met ( along with his wallet :P )

Don't need to bring politics into what is happening.

I'd leave to you to work out why it is happening.

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13 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

so in summary Doctors have always left the NHS but currently slightly more are  ??

Whatever, it seems there's been an increase in Doctors leaving, and drop in those training, which won't be helped by all this current mess. That's not what most people would want to see for the NHS.

Remember all those pledges about no top down re-organisation of the NHS the tories made? I don't think they've quite stuck to that *, myself.

 

*they lied

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2 minutes ago, blandy said:

Whatever, it seems there's been an increase in Doctors leaving, and drop in those training, which won't be helped by all this current mess. That's not what most people would want to see for the NHS.

Remember all those pledges about no top down re-organisation of the NHS the tories made? I don't think they've quite stuck to that *, myself.

 

*they lied

that was in the same 2010 manifesto where they promised no VAT rises  .... clearly it was all the Lib Dems fault riding shotgun over the tory party  and they got rightly trounced in 2015 for it 

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1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

that was in the same 2010 manifesto where they promised no VAT rises  .... clearly it was all the Lib Dems fault riding shotgun over the tory party  and they got rightly trounced in 2015 for it 

That's either humour (intended at least) that has gone under my feet, or just trolling. 

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52 minutes ago, blandy said:

That's either humour (intended at least) that has gone under my feet, or just trolling. 

I thought it was obvious and didn't require a smiley 

seems I was wrong :)

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Hospitals may refuse to impose Jeremy Hunt’s new contract on junior doctors

Quote

Hospitals may go it alone and refuse to impose the new contract on junior doctors proposed by the health secretary, Jeremy Hunt, on NHS trainee medics from August.

The Guardian has established that none of the 152 foundation trust hospitals in England will be obliged to force their junior doctors to accept the deal and can instead offer them better terms.

The disclosure of an opt-out for top hospitals threatens to derail the health secretary’s controversial push to impose new terms and conditions on all 45,000 junior doctors that has sparked their bitter and long-running dispute.

...more on link

I'm not so sure it threatens to derail anything. Surely the potential for increased division within the health service is a win for anyone looking to fundamentally change it?

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Its funny Hunt is only picking on the Junior Doctors and not the 100k+ a year consultants who get away with working hours to suit. 

Consultants are covering these Juniors while they are strking with no arguments. Maybe because they are getting paid by the NHS around £100+ an hour overtime.

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On 2/12/2016 at 17:54, chrisp65 said:

I thought the white middle aged Aussie wanting to curb immigration needed a reality check right in the kisser.

It was all about context last night with Nigel. He was utterly wrong in some of his 'facts', but has the skill of lacking any humility or embarrassment so just plowed on through. He was attacking the Labour leader, so he was on a bit of an easy ride. Plus of course, half the audience was from little england just down the road from Carmarthen.

Crabb, the tory Secretary of State for Wales, based in Westminster, appeared slightly surprised that a question came up on saving steel, didn't have anything to say about the Swansea energy project (he literally shrugged and looked away) and confessed to 'not knowing the specifics relevant to Wales' on a health question.

That's the job for me, 6 figure salary, 6 storey office in Westminster, no need to brush up on the basics before a TV programme. There's a man stealing a good living. 

Thought it was a fairly weak show last night.

 

It was Question Time, of course it was, it always is. 

Though I agree with the rest of your post. 

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