Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership - TTIP

[villakram]

and to follow on from this @Awol, could you please explain the ideas that the UK has form at?

The Eat India company was a good one I'll give you that, but for as long as I've been alive the UK has been nothing but a neo-con inspired, let's privatize everything and try impress our American friends as much as possible hole! And now pretty much the entirety of UK policy is framed around keeping those charming chaps in the "city" happy... because of all the awesome things they produce, of course. Now, gambling on the other hand, that's bad, you hear that peons!

 

[OutByEaster?]

The strange thing about a potential exit of the EU is that those on the left are broadly in favour of it because the EU has become an instrument of the corporate dictatorship and those on the right are in favour of it because it hasn't become enough of an instrument of the corporate dictatorship.

It's those in the middle that are interesting. Of course the problem is that the majority of the people in the middle aren't in the middle by choice, they're in the middle because they can't be arsed and have no interest - these are the people that will decide, and they'll decide once Rupert has told them what they want. 

I'd love to see an EU with real social values, or a value's based UK political system, but both are likely as a lemon flavoured iceberg, so it's hard to see what we're going to get. 

One point earlier for AWOL - you wrote "it is really about whether we want our children and grandchildren to live in an independent country called the United Kingdom, or be a province subsumed within an EU Superstate." I have a feeling that notions of nationhood are on the wane, I don't think our grandchildren will care much for the name of the country they're in as long as they can buy the stuff they're told they want in it.

 

 

[Awol]

 

44 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

The strange thing about a potential exit of the EU is that those on the left are broadly in favour of it because the EU has become an instrument of the corporate dictatorship and those on the right are in favour of it because it hasn't become enough of an instrument of the corporate dictatorship.

That's very unfair imo, most conservative leaning people I know are against remaining in the EU on the basis of national sovereignty and the issues around it, not so they can try and send people up chimneys.

 

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I'd love to see an EU with real social values, or a value's based UK political system, but both are likely as a lemon flavoured iceberg, so it's hard to see what we're going to get.

You get what you fight for, us Brits are fortunate that we can win those battles with words alone.  

 

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One point earlier for AWOL - you wrote "

it is really about whether we want our children and grandchildren to live in an independent country called the United Kingdom, or be a province subsumed within an EU Superstate." I have a feeling that notions of nationhood are on the wane, I don't think our grandchildren will care much for the name of the country they're in as long as they can buy the stuff they're told they want in it.

I think the opposite and that nationhood and national identity are on the rise not the wane, particularly in the European neck of the woods.  It's been a popular line for years that borders are irrelevant, a quick scan of the news most nights puts that theory in doubt. 

 

EDIT:  @Xann Sorry for thread drift, TTIP is shit.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Awol
Comment about shitness of TTIP

[chrisp65]

Not that it's a regular conversation piece, but I've never met anyone that has been in favour of TTIP. Not a single person.

And I've had meetings up that London!

[OutByEaster?]

1 hour ago, Awol said:

Wrote some interesting replies.

I guess in the first case, I wasn't meaning the people, more the people they vote for. 

I don't think we can reclaim democracy with words, I think it's been sold out from under us - with words. We get to vote for governments and they're increasingly irrelevant.

You might be right, but I think as the corporate machine moves to remove barriers to doing business in whichever way it likes, it'll also move towards removing the differences between its consumers - through advertising, through control of government and through media. It's a natural progression.

[tonyh29]

3 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

The strange thing about a potential exit of the EU is that those on the left are broadly in favour of it because the EU has become an instrument of the corporate dictatorship and those on the right are in favour of it because it hasn't become enough of an instrument of the corporate dictatorship

And yet on VT it seems to be the left leaning voters that want to stay in the EU and the right leaning who want out 

 

mind you VT also pointed to a Green landslide in the last General Election

[snowychap]

7 hours ago, Awol said:

In it's very basic form the decision isn't about whether or not Brexit means the UK economy will be 2% of GDP larger or smaller by 2030 (and I know you haven't even mentioned it but the economy is taking centre stage at the moment), it is really about whether we want our children and grandchildren to live in an independent country called the United Kingdom, or be a province subsumed within an EU  Superstate. That's not hyperbole, it is the stated intention of the European Federalists who dominate the EU institutions.

I hadn't mentioned the economy on purpose because that wasn't the point I was trying to make (I could refer you back to a previous post you made not so long ago about men of straw).

My point was about the short and medium term effects of a vote to leave (though how long it would take us to actually go on the back of a vote for leaving is anyone's bloody guess) on the continent and how that may affect us whether or not we viewed ourselves as 'sovereign', sufficiently isolated and insulated or removed from what may be happening on that continent. It wasn't about how the result of the vote would affect the EU or EU nations but how it may affect western Europe (and beyond) and no matter how we may vote we won't be moving the UK to the middle of the Pacific so it would still concern us.

The whole endgame discussion about the EU superstate is a worthwhile one to have as is one about the democratic deficit at the heart of the behemoth that is the EU but it needs to be had in conjunction with discussions about the issues with democracy within the nations that make up the EU and this all needs to be framed in the context of the comments that you yourself have made regarding immigration, border controls, the influence of big business and big finance, Russia, increasing nationalism across the EU, further economic turmoil, the EU as a force for preventing military conflict between major European nations and so on.

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by snowychap

[snowychap]

4 hours ago, villakram said:

The Eat India company was a good one

I do love a good curry.

[villakram]

2 hours ago, snowychap said:

I do love a good curry.

I'd love to be able to claim that I meant to say that given the colonial scumbaggery of them, maybe on a subconcious level or something, hungry now though... 

[blandy]

14 hours ago, Xann said:

Having said that - This thread is about TTIP - A lot of different political views here, does anyone think it's a good idea?

The tories love it. So in or out of yurp, they'll be mad for it, spreading for Big Corp. Like I said earlier, instead of quibblling about benefits for Poles, they should be fighting on out behalf to have an open, democratic examination of TTIP proposals, not collaborating to keep give up the ability of nations (or the EU) to decline the overtures of multi-nationals, and surrender our legal systems primacy. 

[Xann]

Should have made it clearer - Anyone on VT think it's a good idea?

[blandy]

11 minutes ago, Xann said:

Should have made it clearer - Anyone on VT think it's a good idea?

Ah, Sorry.

I doubt it, but then again, as the details are mostly in secret, except the odd part which has crept out, it's hard to be anything other than opposed to a secret deal, with courts and national /EU sovereignty  and consumer protection overridden in favour of big business. I guess there will be parts of it which might be beneficial, but we're not allowed to see any of it.

[tonyh29]

to save me having to read up on it just stick me down for the opposite of whatever blandy says as that seems to be where we fall in on every other policy discussion  

[islingtonclaret]

The deal is probably the biggest disgrace to Democracy in the Western hemisphere I've witnessed since George W. Bush cheated to get in the White House.

The wheels are turning for TPP in the Pacific at the moment, and the whole thing scares me.

[limpid]

4 hours ago, blandy said:

Ah, Sorry.

I doubt it, but then again, as the details are mostly in secret, except the odd part which has crept out, it's hard to be anything other than opposed to a secret deal, with courts and national /EU sovereignty  and consumer protection overridden in favour of big business. I guess there will be parts of it which might be beneficial, but we're not allowed to see any of it.

This. If it needs to be secret, it's bad.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

to save me having to read up on it just stick me down for the opposite of whatever blandy says as that seems to be where we fall in on every other policy discussion  

I thought we were the same on the snooper's charter, Tony?  - I even (accidentally, of course) might have done a like on one or two of your posts on it.

Obviously, yes, you're completely wrong on most things  but on stuff that affects our liberties and freedoms, you're on the side of the lentil munchers and quinoa knitters

[OutByEaster?]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ttip-uk-government-only-did-one-assessment-of-trade-deal-and-found-it-had-lots-of-risks-and-no-a6999646.html

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TTIP: UK Government found trade deal had 'lots of risk and no benefit' in its only assessment

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The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership will have "few or no benefits to the UK", according to the only official assessment of the deal commissioned by the UK Government.

The warning was disclosed in response to a Freedom of Information request by anti-TTIP campaigners Global Justice Now.

Campaigners filed a request to the Department for Business Innovation and Skills to ask what risk assessments had been made about the treaty.

The BIS said it had carried out only one such review in 2013, when the London School of Economics was commissioned to conduct a study.

The study found that TTIP would have limited political and economic benefits and may result on "meaningful economic costs in the UK".

"All in all, it is doubtful UK investors will find additional protections from an EU-US investment protection treaty beyond those currently provided, and enforced, under US law," the study found. 

Supporters of TTIP say it could boost the European and US economies by hundreds of billions of dollars by making it easier for companies on either side of the Atlantic to trade with one another.

Opponents say TTIP could give corporations the power to sue governments when they pass regulation that could hit that corporation's profits through an international court called the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS).

United Nations figures have shown that that US companies have made billions of dollars by suing other governments nearly 130 times in the past 15 years under similar free-trade agreements.

Details of the cases are often secret, but notorious precedents include the tobacco giant Philip Morris suing Australia and Uruguay for putting health warnings on cigarette packets.

"Ultimately, we conclude that an EU-US investment treaty that does contain ISDS is likely to have few or no benefits to the UK, while having meaningful economic and political costs," the report said.

Nick Dearden, director of Global Justice Now said the findings show the treaty could have harmful consequences for ordinary people.

"Introducing a system of secret corporate courts under TTIP would be a fundamental shift in trade and legal policies, so it’s staggering that the government is pushing us into it with almost no assessment of what the risks are for our policy makers or the tax payer," he said.

The revelations come as UK Prime Minister David Cameron travels to join Obama, Merkel, French President Francois Hollande and Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi to discuss TTIP in Germany. 

Obama's trip to Europe has been seen as an effort to drum up support for TTIP before the end of his time in the White House. He has been pushing for its completition since parties were scheduled to sign in 2014, promising the treaty would remove “regulatory and bureaucratic irritants and blockages to trade."

“If we don’t complete negotiations this year, then upcoming political transitions — in the United States and Europe — could mean this agreement won’t be finished for quite some time," he said.

A BIS spokesperson said the TTIP agreement is an opportunity to create the largest free trade area in the world with the potential to boost the UK economy by as much as £10 billion each year.

"Since 2013, the investment protection provisions in TTIP have been significantly reformed. The government has engaged closely with stakeholders and the European Commission as negotiations have progressed," the spokeswoman said.

War on Want campaign director John Hilary told Morning Star that the Global Justice Now findings confirm that David Cameron has been misleading British citizens when talking up the benefits of TTIP.

“We have challenged the UK government time and again to show us any evidence that TTIP will be good for ordinary people. Now we know why it has failed to provide that evidence — because they have none," he said.

 

This is going to happen whether the EU, the British Government, the people of Europe, Economists, Politicians, Uncle Tom Cobley and the band of the Royal Marines like it or not. I hate TTIP for a lot of reasons, but mostly because it exposes exactly who it is that runs the world and for whose benefit it's run.

 

[Xann]

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TTIP is a very bad excuse to vote for Brexit

Barack Obama gave TTIP the hard sell, but leaving the EU would only make the controversial trade deal more likely – and possibly worse

It’s true that TTIP is a symbol of all that’s wrong with Europe: dreamed up by corporate lobbyists, TTIP is less about trade and more about giving big business sweeping new powers over our society. It is a blueprint for deregulation and privatisation. As such it makes a good case for Brexit.

Until you remember that the British government has done everything possible to push the most extreme version of TTIP, just as they’ve fought against pretty much every financial regulation, from bankers bonuses to a financial transaction tax. While Germany and France were concerned about TTIP’s corporate court system – which allows foreign business to sue governments for “unfair” laws like putting cigarettes in plain packets – the UK secretly wrote to the European commission president demanding he retain it.

 

Grauniad

[blandy]

21 minutes ago, Xann said:

Grauniad [ TTIP is a very bad excuse to vote for Brexit ]

I think it's the most compelling of reasons to vote leave, personally, rather than an "excuse". Never mind all this gibberish about "ooh nasty foriners comin over here and doin' our jobs and stealing our houses and we pay them millions" crap. Secret deals, for secret courts and secret changes to laws that protect us, all conducted by big business and lobbyists away from the scrutiny of even the people we elect to govern the EU. It's shockingly rotten.

[blandy]

21 minutes ago, Xann said:

Grauniad [ TTIP is a very bad excuse to vote for Brexit ]

I think it's the most compelling of reasons to vote leave, personally, rather than an "excuse". Never mind all this gibberish about "ooh nasty foriners comin over here and doin' our jobs and stealing our houses and we pay them millions" crap. Secret deals, for secret courts and secret changes to laws that protect us, all conducted by big business and lobbyists away from the scrutiny of even the people we elect to govern the EU. It's shockingly rotten.