The Tim Sherwood Thread

[Stevo985]

It's not overestimating Aston Villa's capabilities to expect to not be bottom of the table in October (which we will be)

It's not.

But that's isn't the point being made, and you know it

Isn't it?

 

You picked out one or two comments of "it's unacceptable to not beat stoke" and someone wnating Klopp and/or Ancelotti as manager.

My point was yes, that is obviously overestimating us. but that's one or two nutters saying that.

In reality, most fans are unhappy because we're in the relegation zone. And it doesn't matter what you think of Aston Villa, that is performing below our ability.
People don't want Sherwood out because we lost to Stoke or because they want Ancelotti to replace him. They want Sherwood out because we're sinking like a stone and he's doing nothing to change that.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Stevo985

[useless]

The knowing us we'll lose to such and such poor teams and then and beat Chelsea, Man City, whoever line. Is something that I see on a lot of fan forums, but it obviously has no basis in reality.

[Stevo985]

It's not overestimating Aston Villa's capabilities to expect to not be bottom of the table in October (which we will be)

I just cant agree with this given how crap we have been in recent years, finishes of 16th, 15th, 15th and 17th in the last 4 years would not exactly suggest we are capable of much more. We haven't even made 40 points in 3 of those seasons. This summer saw us lose 3 very good players, who were probably our best players at the end of last season. Villa have just been really lucky with how crap other teams have been in recent years, our luck might be about to run out this season.

**** me. You don't think it's reasonable to expect NOT to be bottom of the table?

Why even bother having a manager then? Or a team? May as well just play the youth team and save everybody's wages.

[bobzy]

It's not overestimating Aston Villa's capabilities to expect to not be bottom of the table in October (which we will be)

It's not.

But that's isn't the point being made, and you know it

Isn't it?

 

You picked out one or two comments of "it's unacceptable to not beat stoke" and someone wnating Klopp and/or Ancelotti as manager.

My point was yes, that is obviously overestimating us. but that's one or two nutters saying that.

In reality, most fans are unhappy because we're in the relegation zone. And it doesn't matter what you think of Aston Villa, that is performing below our ability.

It really wasn't "one or two nutters" saying that anything other than a victory against Stoke was unacceptable and certainly the majority hold the opinion it was a game that we should not have lost.

Your last line sort of sums it up - "what you think of Aston Villa", it's not about the club as a legacy.  People seem to be clinging onto top 6 finishes (although MON was terrible?) or past glories.  There were predictions of top half finishes and certainly mid table (myself included).  What is this even based on?

We've been poor for at least 4 seasons now.  I'm almost certain that if we swapped places with Bournemouth/Chelsea/West Brom right now, we'd still be calling for Sherwood's head.  There's a perception we should be doing far better than we are... but, in the same breath, many comments in individual players threads saying they aren't good enough.  It can't be both ways, but it often is.

I'm included in all this, by the way, it's not having a go at "everyone else".  We hold ourselves in high regard when the reality is that we shouldn't.  Obviously, not being relegated is a fair ambition (Edit: used "ambition" here, should've been "expectation").

Edited October 7, 2015 by bobzy

[TrentVilla]

 

He is a dead man walking, or should that be limping.

He won't be here at Christmas or even remotely close, its just a question of when rather than if he goes.

Edited October 7, 2015 by TrentVilla

[Stevo985]

It's not overestimating Aston Villa's capabilities to expect to not be bottom of the table in October (which we will be)

It's not.

But that's isn't the point being made, and you know it

Isn't it?

 

You picked out one or two comments of "it's unacceptable to not beat stoke" and someone wnating Klopp and/or Ancelotti as manager.

My point was yes, that is obviously overestimating us. but that's one or two nutters saying that.

In reality, most fans are unhappy because we're in the relegation zone. And it doesn't matter what you think of Aston Villa, that is performing below our ability.

It really wasn't "one or two nutters" saying that anything other than a victory against Stoke was unacceptable and certainly the majority hold the opinion it was a game that we should not have lost.

Your last line sort of sums it up - "what you think of Aston Villa", it's not about the club as a legacy.  People seem to be clinging onto top 6 finishes (although MON was terrible?) or past glories.  There were predictions of top half finishes and certainly mid table (myself included).  What is this even based on?

We've been poor for at least 4 seasons now.  I'm almost certain that if we swapped places with Bournemouth/Chelsea/West Brom right now, we'd still be calling for Sherwood's head.  There's a perception we should be doing far better than we are... but, in the same breath, many comments in individual players threads saying they aren't good enough.  It can't be both ways, but it often is.

I'm included in all this, by the way, it's not having a go at "everyone else".  We hold ourselves in high regard when the reality is that we shouldn't.  Obviously, not being relegated is a fair ambition (Edit: used "ambition" here, should've been "expectation").

But you're jumping from one extreme to another. As a club I think we should be finishing in the top 6. In general. But that's not what I want right now. I'm not angry at Sherwood for not having us in the top 6.

But that doesn't mean I think we should be where we are. It's not an over-expectation to not want to be 18th in the table. 

As you say, ambition and expectation are two different things. I'm sure most of our fans have the ambition of Villa being a top 6 side, if not more. But that's not what fans expect this season.

What i expect is an improvement on the previous season. That's not what we're getting.

[StefanAVFC]

It's not overestimating Aston Villa's capabilities to expect to not be bottom of the table in October (which we will be)

It's not.

But that's isn't the point being made, and you know it

Isn't it?

 

You picked out one or two comments of "it's unacceptable to not beat stoke" and someone wnating Klopp and/or Ancelotti as manager.

My point was yes, that is obviously overestimating us. but that's one or two nutters saying that.

In reality, most fans are unhappy because we're in the relegation zone. And it doesn't matter what you think of Aston Villa, that is performing below our ability.

It really wasn't "one or two nutters" saying that anything other than a victory against Stoke was unacceptable and certainly the majority hold the opinion it was a game that we should not have lost. Really?  There's a difference between 'anything other than a victory is unacceptable' and 'we should not have lost'. It begins with D.

Your last line sort of sums it up - "what you think of Aston Villa", it's not about the club as a legacy.  People seem to be clinging onto top 6 finishes (although MON was terrible?) or past glories.  There were predictions of top half finishes and certainly mid table (myself included).  What is this even based on? Again there's a huge middle ground between 'top 6 finishes' and 'bottom of the table in October'. And you had the cheek to accuse people of black and white thinking?

We've been poor for at least 4 seasons now.  I'm almost certain that if we swapped places with Bournemouth/Chelsea/West Brom right now, we'd still be calling for Sherwood's head.  There's a perception we should be doing far better than we are... but, in the same breath, many comments in individual players threads saying they aren't good enough.  It can't be both ways, but it often is. Nope. It goes far beyond the results. It's because people can't see a way forward because Sherwood seemingly doesn't have a clue and his comments support that view. If we'd be where we are with far different performances, people would be less angry.

I'm included in all this, by the way, it's not having a go at "everyone else".  We hold ourselves in high regard when the reality is that we shouldn't.  Obviously, not being relegated is a fair ambition (Edit: used "ambition" here, should've been "expectation").

Responses in blue.

Edited October 7, 2015 by StefanAVFC

[bobzy]

 

But you're jumping from one extreme to another. As a club I think we should be finishing in the top 6. In general. But that's not what I want right now. I'm not angry at Sherwood for not having us in the top 6.

But that doesn't mean I think we should be where we are. It's not an over-expectation to not want to be 18th in the table. 

As you say, ambition and expectation are two different things. I'm sure most of our fans have the ambition of Villa being a top 6 side, if not more. But that's not what fans expect this season.

What i expect is an improvement on the previous season. That's not what we're getting.

But we're only 8 games in and with an entirely new regime (sure, Sherwood had a couple of months last season too).

We're scoring more goals, statistically improving in terms of shots/possession/attempts on our goal etc. etc. and haven't lost by more than 1 goal so far this season.  Yes, there's been bizarre substitutions and unfavourable tactical decisions, but I don't really see us as currently 'regressing' in anything other than points on the board - which is, essentially, all that matters.

If it wasn't for Sherwood being Sherwood, I'd be backing our manager more.  Everything takes time.  Fans (not only ours) want instant gratification, though.

[bobzy]

 

Your last line sort of sums it up - "what you think of Aston Villa", it's not about the club as a legacy.  People seem to be clinging onto top 6 finishes (although MON was terrible?) or past glories.  There were predictions of top half finishes and certainly mid table (myself included).  What is this even based on? Again there's a huge middle ground between 'top 6 finishes' and 'bottom of the table in October'. And you had the cheek to accuse people of black and white thinking?

 

Responses in blue.

You've misread.  I've said people are clinging onto top 6 finishes and past glories as a means of determining that Aston Villa should be top half/mid-table. I haven't once said people are thinking we should be top 6.

[Stevo985]

In 6 weeks I imagine things will look much worse "statistically". Especially when we're still on 4 points. Let's revisit.

 

Edit: not that Sherwood will be in charge, so that scenario will probably never happen

Edited October 7, 2015 by Stevo985

[TrentVilla]

 

But you're jumping from one extreme to another. As a club I think we should be finishing in the top 6. In general. But that's not what I want right now. I'm not angry at Sherwood for not having us in the top 6.

But that doesn't mean I think we should be where we are. It's not an over-expectation to not want to be 18th in the table. 

As you say, ambition and expectation are two different things. I'm sure most of our fans have the ambition of Villa being a top 6 side, if not more. But that's not what fans expect this season.

What i expect is an improvement on the previous season. That's not what we're getting.

But we're only 8 games in and with an entirely new regime (sure, Sherwood had a couple of months last season too).

We're scoring more goals, statistically improving in terms of shots/possession/attempts on our goal etc. etc. and haven't lost by more than 1 goal so far this season.  Yes, there's been bizarre substitutions and unfavourable tactical decisions, but I don't really see us as currently 'regressing' in anything other than points on the board - which is, essentially, all that matters.

If it wasn't for Sherwood being Sherwood, I'd be backing our manager more.  Everything takes time.  Fans (not only ours) want instant gratification, though.

Yes but not everything gets better with time.

 

[tylerreznik]

I actually like Sherwood and I like the set up he has put in place at the club. He made a lot of unproven signings who will take time to adjust, and has not replaced Delph, Cleverley or Benteke and he was never going to with the transfer budget he had available

50 million quid?

We spent that on about 11 players, it would have been £50 minimum to replace the quality of just Benteke, Delph and Cleverley like for like. Thats my point

Benteke - 7mil, Delph - 5m, Clevery - 7m / free if he wanted to be at the club.

Gomis - Free, A Ayew - Free, Sigurdsson - 7-10m, Bojan - 3m

N'Zogbia - 9.5m, Ireland 8m (p/e), Curtis Davis - 8m, Bent 18-22m

The old quality costs money excuse is just nonsense punted but the press and Sky, and now is sadly believed by everyone, just a perfect illustration of how sick the game has become and how agents / players / media rule the modern game.

Sure world class players cost big money, once you drop down a grade or two i think on average you'd be lucky to class more than 50% of 10m+ signings as a success at most clubs.

Yes you need to invest in the team, but just to blindly say oh it costs 15m+, 25m+ to replace Delph / Benteke, clearly it does't and clearly spending that sort of money does't guarantee anything.  Sherwood had 50m to spend, that's a big amount of money however you want to slice it.

[a m ole]

 

He is a dead man walking, or should that be limping.

He won't be here at Christmas or even remotely close, its just a question of when rather than if he goes.

opinion or rumblings, Trent?

[StefanAVFC]

 

Your last line sort of sums it up - "what you think of Aston Villa", it's not about the club as a legacy.  People seem to be clinging onto top 6 finishes (although MON was terrible?) or past glories.  There were predictions of top half finishes and certainly mid table (myself included).  What is this even based on? Again there's a huge middle ground between 'top 6 finishes' and 'bottom of the table in October'. And you had the cheek to accuse people of black and white thinking?

 

Responses in blue.

 

You've misread.  I've said people are clinging onto top 6 finishes and past glories as a means of determining that Aston Villa should be top half/mid-table. I haven't once said people are thinking we should be top 6.

I'm not sure I am.

You've said that people have inflated expectations because we finished top 6 a few times? Whereas I don't think they do. People don't expect to be bottom by November (which we will be IMO)

[bobzy]

 

Your last line sort of sums it up - "what you think of Aston Villa", it's not about the club as a legacy.  People seem to be clinging onto top 6 finishes (although MON was terrible?) or past glories.  There were predictions of top half finishes and certainly mid table (myself included).  What is this even based on? Again there's a huge middle ground between 'top 6 finishes' and 'bottom of the table in October'. And you had the cheek to accuse people of black and white thinking?

 

Responses in blue.

 

You've misread.  I've said people are clinging onto top 6 finishes and past glories as a means of determining that Aston Villa should be top half/mid-table. I haven't once said people are thinking we should be top 6.

I'm not sure I am.

You've said that people have inflated expectations because we finished top 6 a few times? Whereas I don't think they do. People don't expect to be bottom by November (which we will be IMO)

I'm fairly sure it plays a part.  As I say, I'm in the same boat.  I look at the club as a whole and think "well, we should really be at least top of the bottom half of the table" but maybe the reality of the past few seasons suggests I'm expecting a bit too much?  Should I be happy with survival again but with a better, more established squad to improve gradually?  I don't know.

 

( Quite enjoyed "I don't expect to be bottom by November but I expect us to be bottom by November" by the way )

Edited October 7, 2015 by bobzy

[KHV]

It's not overestimating Aston Villa's capabilities to expect to not be bottom of the table in October (which we will be)

I just cant agree with this given how crap we have been in recent years, finishes of 16th, 15th, 15th and 17th in the last 4 years would not exactly suggest we are capable of much more. We haven't even made 40 points in 3 of those seasons. This summer saw us lose 3 very good players, who were probably our best players at the end of last season. Villa have just been really lucky with how crap other teams have been in recent years, our luck might be about to run out this season.

**** me. You don't think it's reasonable to expect NOT to be bottom of the table?

Why even bother having a manager then? Or a team? May as well just play the youth team and save everybody's wages.

No, we only spent £55m on a large number of players in the summer, we needed to spend twice that amount to get anywhere near the realms of safety in mid table

[tylerreznik]

I actually like Sherwood and I like the set up he has put in place at the club. He made a lot of unproven signings who will take time to adjust, and has not replaced Delph, Cleverley or Benteke and he was never going to with the transfer budget he had available

Bit like saying I really like Kim Joun-un, really impressed the set-up he's put in place since being elected Dear Leader of North Korea, and given time I think he's really going to turn the country around and archive great things  

[StefanAVFC]

It's not overestimating Aston Villa's capabilities to expect to not be bottom of the table in October (which we will be)

I just cant agree with this given how crap we have been in recent years, finishes of 16th, 15th, 15th and 17th in the last 4 years would not exactly suggest we are capable of much more. We haven't even made 40 points in 3 of those seasons. This summer saw us lose 3 very good players, who were probably our best players at the end of last season. Villa have just been really lucky with how crap other teams have been in recent years, our luck might be about to run out this season.

**** me. You don't think it's reasonable to expect NOT to be bottom of the table?

Why even bother having a manager then? Or a team? May as well just play the youth team and save everybody's wages.

No, we only spent £55m on a large number of players in the summer, we needed to spend twice that amount to get anywhere near the realms of safety in mid table

Absolute twoddle. Only 2 clubs spent £110m this season, and they'll be in the top 2 this year.

'We needed to spend 110m to get anywhere near mid table'

Possibly the most bonkers comment I've EVER read on VT.

Edited October 7, 2015 by StefanAVFC

[Stevo985]

It's not overestimating Aston Villa's capabilities to expect to not be bottom of the table in October (which we will be)

I just cant agree with this given how crap we have been in recent years, finishes of 16th, 15th, 15th and 17th in the last 4 years would not exactly suggest we are capable of much more. We haven't even made 40 points in 3 of those seasons. This summer saw us lose 3 very good players, who were probably our best players at the end of last season. Villa have just been really lucky with how crap other teams have been in recent years, our luck might be about to run out this season.

**** me. You don't think it's reasonable to expect NOT to be bottom of the table?

Why even bother having a manager then? Or a team? May as well just play the youth team and save everybody's wages.

No, we only spent £55m on a large number of players in the summer, we needed to spend twice that amount to get anywhere near the realms of safety in mid table

 

 

Edited October 7, 2015 by Stevo985

[Stevo985]

If that were true then why did we ever sack Lambert? He was overperforming!