maqroll Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 The Russians have been playing with fire trolling other countries airspace for years now... hate to say it, but it was only a matter of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 1 minute ago, maqroll said: The Russians have been playing with fire trolling other countries airspace for years now... hate to say it, but it was only a matter of time. They "test" the UK all the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 24, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 24, 2015 31 minutes ago, Genie said: Bad day for the Russian military. Is it amateur hour? First they ignore all the "please respond or fly away or we'll shoot you down messages" Then they follow it up by flying a helicopter into an area known to contain the same pepole who had shot their pilots earlier in the day. ...and the world is supposed to be scared of Russia??? I'm not sure I would call sending a helicopter on a search and rescue helicopter to try and save two of their airmen isn't what I'd called amateur hour personally. What would you expect them to do? Leave them to be burnt alive perhaps like the poor airman form Jordan? They tried to save two pilots and came under fire doing so, I'd imagine they knew it was a risk but that kind of comes with the territory. Although its worth noting quotes attributed to Sergey Rudskoy claim the plane didn't enter Turkish airspace and that the Turkish plane actually entered Syrian airspace. Unlikely but right now its too early to know the truth. Anyway.... leaving that aside and returning to the original incident, yes it would seem that the plane entered Turkish airspace but I think its completely wrong to label that as being 'amateur hour'. Russia regularly enters other nations airspace or territorial waters, it isn't accidental it isn't amateur hour, its calculated its intentional, its in a lot of cases intentionally confrontational and its designed to show Russia and by extension Putin flexing muscles. In this particular incident it may or may not have been an error that saw the plane in Turkish airspace but it seems pretty bloody unlikely. As for "the world is supposed to be scared of Russia", well yes its perfectly reasonable to be slightly concerned about a nation that recently annexed a large part of a neighbouring country, was to some extent complicit in the downing of a domestic passenger flight and which takes little notice of international indignation or objections to its actions. This is a country with a huge military force and a leader in Putin who places huge store in his and by extension Russia's global military reputation and ability to to an extent do as it wishes. So far I'm quite staggered at the level of restraint shown by Putin and his forces, I'd have expected a more knee jerk reaction but already warning signs of escalation are there. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov is sounding particularly hawkish and warning of dire consequences, Putin is quoted as describing Turkey's actions as a stab in the back. Russia is now sending fighters to escort all military in the area, deployed the Moskva guided missile off the coast of Syria nice and close to Turkey and said it will destroy any target that may pose a thread to their forces. Oh and Putin has finally called Turkey what it is, an accomplice to terrorism. Is there reason to fear Russia? Yes I'd say so given that a Nato member has effectively just poked mother Russia in the eye with a huge shitty stick. Given all the above and our commitment to to support a fellow Nato member should the need arise I think there are more than a few reasons to be concerned at what happens next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) 11 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: I'm not sure I would call sending a helicopter on a search and rescue helicopter to try and save two of their airmen isn't what I'd called amateur hour personally. What would you expect them to do? Leave them to be burnt alive perhaps like the poor airman form Jordan? They tried to save two pilots and came under fire doing so, I'd imagine they knew it was a risk but that kind of comes with the territory. Although its worth noting quotes attributed to Sergey Rudskoy claim the plane didn't enter Turkish airspace and that the Turkish plane actually entered Syrian airspace. Unlikely but right now its too early to know the truth. Anyway.... leaving that aside and returning to the original incident, yes it would seem that the plane entered Turkish airspace but I think its completely wrong to label that as being 'amateur hour'. Russia regularly enters other nations airspace or territorial waters, it isn't accidental it isn't amateur hour, its calculated its intentional, its in a lot of cases intentionally confrontational and its designed to show Russia and by extension Putin. I stand by the Amateurish quote, 1) if you are being told to respond, move or get shot down then you're asking for trouble if you ignore it all. 2) If you're heading into an area to (quite rightly) try and recover your service men, dead or alive then you need to take the correct precautions and go prepared when they knew it was crawling with rebels. They clearly didn't do that either and got their pants pulled down a second time in a day. Doesn't scream military super power to me. Edited November 24, 2015 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 This all gets more fascinating by the day. I can't remember a more convoluted geopolitical situation...ever? So many players involved with both similar and conflicting interests, it's impossible to predict how it will shake out, but it certainly won't be pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 I'm showing my ignorance but could the initial incident be a case of lost in translation? The Turkish were communicating to the Russian plane in Turkish/English and the Russian pilot didn't understand the warning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 4 minutes ago, Ghost said: I'm showing my ignorance but could the initial incident be a case of lost in translation? The Turkish were communicating to the Russian plane in Turkish/English and the Russian pilot didn't understand the warning? I'm sure the pilot wasn't thinking they were telling him to enjoy the view... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC_Hitz Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 The turks would be all like. "Abi, napiyon" "Gerçekten amina koyim napiyosun" "Ya abi ya sikildim senden" " nereye uçuyorsun yaaa" "Tamam abi, hadi bye bye" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 1 hour ago, maqroll said: The Russians have been playing with fire trolling other countries airspace for years now... hate to say it, but it was only a matter of time. ...and the Turks do it to Greece all the time, this isn't the right and proper response and Turkey will now, rightly, pay for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 24, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted November 24, 2015 This is the kind of thing that I and a few others were talking about with this whole situation being ludicrously complex. You've got too many cooks reading too many different recipes all using the same hob. Someone will get burned and you'll serve up a mess. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Just now, Dr_Pangloss said: ...and the Turks do it to Greece all the time, this isn't the right and proper response and Turkey will now, rightly, pay for it. Putin is in a tough spot all of a sudden. Two major incidents since he decided to join the scrum, so things aren't going very well for him. And now he can't be seen as being weak...but Russian-Turkish relations until today were pretty stable. Massive economic ties that he will not want to damage too much, but he still has to act. He probably wishes he stayed the **** out of it now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 4 minutes ago, Chindie said: This is the kind of thing that I and a few others were talking about with this whole situation being ludicrously complex. You've got too many cooks reading too many different recipes all using the same hob. Someone will get burned and you'll serve up a mess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) 17 minutes ago, maqroll said: Putin is in a tough spot all of a sudden. Two major incidents since he decided to join the scrum, so things aren't going very well for him. And now he can't be seen as being weak...but Russian-Turkish relations until today were pretty stable. Massive economic ties that he will not want to damage too much, but he still has to act. He probably wishes he stayed the **** out of it now! The other way to look at it is that Russia now owns the biggest stack at the Syria negotiating table (or at least it has increased), and the Turks will necessarily lose out down the line when this mess is all sorted out. The diplomats will not appreciate having to scramble to clean up Erdogan's mess. Syria is done, the game now is to ensure you (i) have a seat and (ii) to improve your position if possible. Regardless of public statements of support, Turkey has screwed up here. Edited November 24, 2015 by villakram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 50 minutes ago, maqroll said: This all gets more fascinating by the day. I can't remember a more convoluted geopolitical situation...ever? So many players involved with both similar and conflicting interests, it's impossible to predict how it will shake out, but it certainly won't be pretty. My distant memory of history lessons suggests World War 1 was quite complicated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC_Hitz Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) Edited November 25, 2015 by limpid fixed embed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 13 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: My distant memory of history lessons suggests World War 1 was quite complicated? I think WW1 was just incredibly stupid more than complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 13 minutes ago, AVFC_Hitz said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlr8dAlRKLA I can't read Turkish lips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Just now, maqroll said: I think WW1 was just incredibly stupid more than complicated. potato potatoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 1 hour ago, TrentVilla said: ...deployed the Moskva guided missile off the coast of Syria... Which last week was assigned to help the French smush IS. This week it's watching France's NATO ally, Turkey. What's it doing next week? Maybe it'll be watching the Chinese. IS killing a Chinese national has pissed off Beijing. It's all a bit confusing. We don't need to be involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PongRiddims Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Genuine question, is this WW3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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