TrentVilla Posted December 22, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2015 Thought that piece would raise some interesting responses, I wasn't wrong. I agree with much if not the majority of what has been written in the posts following. There was an element of me playing devils advocate in posting it because the alternative position often offered to military intervention is often building consensus between regional powers and Western objectives and muslim countries like Saudi playing an active part. (generally speaking, not in direct reference to this thread) Saudi intervention is difficult for a whole host of reasons not least their own internal stability which the region needs irrespective of the unpleasant nature of the regime. Yet now Saudi are seemingly moving closer to stepping up to the plate there doesn't seem to be all that much enthusiasm for their potential actions. Which is understandable for lots of reasons, some of which have been very well expressed in the post preceding this one. It does though leave me still scratching my head as to what on earth the solution to all this looks like. On the subject of Saudi Arabia there was an excellent piece in The Times on the 5th December, I wish I could post it but pay walls, what can you do... If any of you have access though this is it. Quote The West is making big demands on Saudi Arabia but the kingdom is more likely to experience revolution than reform Back in 2011 Facebook users in Saudi Arabia called for a Day of Rage. All around them in the Arab world young people were clamouring for change and so tens of thousands eagerly signed up for an anti-government protest. On the day, a single demonstrator turned up. It was the world’s smallest insurgency and he was duly banged up for 18 months. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4632929.ece Meanwhile.... back in Iraqi Ramadi seems to be on the verge of being taken remarkable easily. Holding it for any prolonged period of time will be a different matter entirely as our troops being deployed in Helmand this evening demonstrates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I think for Saudi to fall apart would require either the military or another power faction in the monarchy to lead, as a very loud and clear example of what happens to troublemakers was made in Bahrain back in the "spring" days... and of course their, unreported on this side of the globe, current campaign in Yemen too. Such a change would be of the out with the old in with the new, same as it ever was variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 The Saudi Grand alliance against terrorism is a farce, Lebanon, Pakistan, Indonesia and others immediately said they were not even consulted before the announcement - and we're not interested. In reality it is an attempt to co-opt the Sunni Muslim world into a Saudi led gang with which to oppose Iran, Damascus, Shia run Baghdad and Houthi run Sana'a. Link popped up on twitter today to a Saudi news broadcast admitting precisely that. So the real question is why would Saudi do this and why now? I'd say it's because their proxies are slowly getting minced by Russian air power in Syria, their own multi billion dollar army has been getting panelled by a bunch of mountain men in Yemen (who are currently counter invading Saudi itself in their flip flops) and the previously Sunni dominated Baghdad is now lost to them for good. The Al Sauds are filling their pants about a sectarian war thèy have been waging coming back to bite them on the arse, and feel overmatched by Shia populations in the region. This joke alliance is an attempt to redress that perception by shot gunning the remaining Muslim world into supporting them. It's desperate stuff and suggests they are very worried, I hope with good cause. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 4 hours ago, villakram said: I think for Saudi to fall apart would require either the military or another power faction in the monarchy to lead, as a very loud and clear example of what happens to troublemakers was made in Bahrain back in the "spring" days... and of course their, unreported on this side of the globe, current campaign in Yemen too. Such a change would be of the out with the old in with the new, same as it ever was variety. Partially right, IMO. The Al Saud are secure as long as the Sheikhs in the Kingdom back them - and they are paid handsomely to do so. It's this mega wealthy and archly conservative Wahhabi (yes Wahhabi is the correct term) nobility that funds your AQ franchises, ISIS etc. Should they lose the Sheikhs they lose the Kingdom, but for now that's simply a question of money. However unlike Bahrain where Sunni GCC troops slaughtered unarmed protesters from the majority Shia population, a popular rising against Al Saud would come from the overwhelming majority Sunnis of KSA. They are the ones bred on the hate of Wahhabi clerics from the time they could speak. As an aside, funny how the West, Saudi, Qatar and Turkey want rid of Assad for killing his own, yet the rulers of Bahrain are utterly untouchable. Any hard won moral authority the west ever had is gone, literally pissed into the desert. Our combined leadership is simply appalling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 14 minutes ago, Awol said: As an aside, funny how the West, Saudi, Qatar and Turkey want rid of Assad for killing his own, yet the rulers of Bahrain are utterly untouchable. Any hard won moral authority the west ever had is gone, literally pissed into the desert. Our combined leadership is simply appalling. 100%... On a broader note: Is it really Sunni vs Shia, Black vs White, Communist vs Fascist or is this all for their benefit, the wealthy aka 1%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 New Years Eve fireworks event cancelled in Brussels... #winning as the cool kids would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downing84 Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 if anything were to happen, tonight would be a good night for them. Phones will all go down, it will be difficult to identify gun shots and explosions when fireworks are going and people are cheering thus making it impossible to get the police in position quickly. It would be extremely difficult to evacuate people out of an area without further injuries and problems etc. Fingers crossed it is a smooth night across the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 16 hours ago, villakram said: New Years Eve fireworks event cancelled in Brussels... #winning as the cool kids would say. or the police have just got other things on their mind http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35197982 Quote Police chiefs in Belgium have reportedly launched an internal investigation into claims soldiers and police officers held an orgy while colleagues hunted for terror suspects. Two policewomen and eight soldiers are said to have engaged in a sex party at a police station in the Brussels neighbourhood of Ganshoren.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) Haha... I read that and was kinda duh, police plus free overtime == ... (maybe not the shex though to be fair to those crazy Belgians) Edited December 31, 2015 by villakram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted January 2, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted January 2, 2016 Things getting interesting in Saudi Arabia... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 On 16/11/2015 at 16:56, snowychap said: On 16/11/2015 at 16:46, Awol said: Hollande doesn't strike me as the instinctively Stalinist type who would choose to limit people's rights (however briefly) for the hell of it. I don't know about that. Everyone in power everywhere is a potential Stalinist. The Grauniad: Quote Separately, the current state of emergency – which gives special powers to security services and police to act without judges’ approval or judicial oversight, carry out night raids, and place people under house arrest — has been extended for another three months. It had been due to expire on 26 February. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Not even remotely surprising. As some smartass over here said the other day, can you imagine how many wrong countries the US would be bombing to bits if ISIS had poisoned the water supply in Flint? You can bet Hollande and his folks have had the strategy discussion about using this to show strength (e.g., see how fast he ran from the Stade de France), and leadership etc. to beat back Le Pen. A thoroughly sad state of affairs. Pity all those love to protest Frenchies wouldn't get their pitchforks out when their rights are being torn up right in front of them. Edited February 10, 2016 by villakram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 On 22/12/2015 at 21:34, TrentVilla said: Thought that piece would raise some interesting responses, I wasn't wrong. I agree with much if not the majority of what has been written in the posts following. There was an element of me playing devils advocate in posting it because the alternative position often offered to military intervention is often building consensus between regional powers and Western objectives and muslim countries like Saudi playing an active part. (generally speaking, not in direct reference to this thread) Saudi intervention is difficult for a whole host of reasons not least their own internal stability which the region needs irrespective of the unpleasant nature of the regime. Yet now Saudi are seemingly moving closer to stepping up to the plate there doesn't seem to be all that much enthusiasm for their potential actions. Which is understandable for lots of reasons, some of which have been very well expressed in the post preceding this one. It does though leave me still scratching my head as to what on earth the solution to all this looks like. On the subject of Saudi Arabia there was an excellent piece in The Times on the 5th December, I wish I could post it but pay walls, what can you do... If any of you have access though this is it. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4632929.ece Meanwhile.... back in Iraqi Ramadi seems to be on the verge of being taken remarkable easily. Holding it for any prolonged period of time will be a different matter entirely as our troops being deployed in Helmand this evening demonstrates. Well I'm sure you aren't alone there ! I don't usually post in here but I thought I'd have a go. I've often pondered as to whether this( what on earth the solution to all this looks like. ) isn't really, for most of us, the problem, or as close to experiencing the problem as we will ever get. I mean, statistically, we are not at all likley to experience a physical manifestation of a terrorist/freedom fighter/crusader/whatever attack. Our real experiences fall into two main categories. Both of which, IMO, are only really issues because we try, whether in our own heads, or at negotiating tables of the U.N., t orationalise and 'solve' them. One is the experience we will have of diminished personal freedoms, whether that means as little as longer queues at airports, or increased state power. I'm not sure we can do a lot about this, ever since time began the object of any state has been to obtain the means to control its people. Two, is mental - distress/trauma/fear/ concern/ trepidation/helplessness etc. Likewise this one is exacerbated (although of course by no means solely) by the "how can this ever be solved ?" question. Yet really, the answer to this question, is simple. 'It' can't be solved. 'It' will just move around. Again, since before nations began, and throughout much of the animal kingdom, turf wars have existed. The need for access to raw materials will never go away, and the fight for supremacy will never end. If we cast our minds back to any point in history, lets say the American Civil War, for years anyone hoping to impose a solution from 'the outside' would have failed. Luckily,( one could argue), such involvement wasn't possible, so the incremental entrapment and engagement of entire (and remote) nations didn't occur. In the end, the fire burnt itself out, to a certain extent (although a hasty tour of the deep south would suggest it smoulders still!). In the end, that is the best we can expect maybe, that at some point events change of their own accord. It is our 'curse' to be living in an information age which almost compels us to ask these questions. It is unliklely our Victorian forbears troubled themselves over much about the Civil War, and still less about, for example, the slaughter of the indigenous population. Were it to happen now ..................... so maybe we would be better served to view events as we do when we look out the window of a train, this event is coming, happening, receeding, but always there, simply replaced by the next, and so on. Anyway, as I say, not a theology student, or philosophy or history, just my views... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) Our Victorian and Edwardian forbears would have been worried about Fenians and Anarchists. News and scares about these would have been rife in the newspapers, and in the gossip passed from pub to pub and factory to factory. Any number of attacks by 'europeans' in Victorian and Edwardian London would have been big news. Winston Churchill himself was involved in the Siege of Sydney Street where a gang of Latvian anarchist gangsters were out gunning the police. The military arrived but even their guns were no match for the rapid fire weapons the gang had. Winston Churchill gained permission to call in field artillery to a house siege in the middle of London. Before the artillery could be used, the house had caught fire. Churchill forbade the fire brigade from dousing the fire, the house burned down with the 'terrorists' inside. This was a famous case, but not a one off, anarchists were responsible for a bomb at Greenwich Observatory, a shoot out on the streets of Tottenham (2 dead, 27 injured), two police shot dead in Houndsditch. Then the Fenians, in 1867 a dynamite break out attempt at Clerkenwell prison killed 12 and injured over a hundred. 1883 saw the first bomb attacks on Underground stations, in 2 years Charings Cross, Praed Street and Gower Street Stations were bombed. The more shit changes, the more shit stays the same. (on a re read - that wasn't meant as a lecture for anyone, it was just something that I poissonally find interesting) Edited February 11, 2016 by chrisp65 hark at him! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 7 hours ago, chrisp65 said: on a re read - that wasn't meant as a lecture for anyone, it was just something that I poissonally find interesting Thank you for an enlightening distribution. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 23 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Our Victorian and Edwardian forbears would have been worried about Fenians and Anarchists. News and scares about these would have been rife in the newspapers, and in the gossip passed from pub to pub and factory to factory. Any number of attacks by 'europeans' in Victorian and Edwardian London would have been big news. Winston Churchill himself was involved in the Siege of Sydney Street where a gang of Latvian anarchist gangsters were out gunning the police. The military arrived but even their guns were no match for the rapid fire weapons the gang had. Winston Churchill gained permission to call in field artillery to a house siege in the middle of London. Before the artillery could be used, the house had caught fire. Churchill forbade the fire brigade from dousing the fire, the house burned down with the 'terrorists' inside. This was a famous case, but not a one off, anarchists were responsible for a bomb at Greenwich Observatory, a shoot out on the streets of Tottenham (2 dead, 27 injured), two police shot dead in Houndsditch. Then the Fenians, in 1867 a dynamite break out attempt at Clerkenwell prison killed 12 and injured over a hundred. 1883 saw the first bomb attacks on Underground stations, in 2 years Charings Cross, Praed Street and Gower Street Stations were bombed. The more shit changes, the more shit stays the same. (on a re read - that wasn't meant as a lecture for anyone, it was just something that I poissonally find interesting) Yeah , that bit. Why the 'eck did it it take me an hours writing to try and say that ? Maybe the missus is right, I am getting a bit long winded ? On the other hand, ....etc blah blah blah.... Anyway, definitely that bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 So more bombings in turkey, seems the kurdish syrians are responsible. Not really a shock after the turks have been bombing the kurds from what i have been reading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 7 hours ago, Demitri_C said: So more bombings in turkey, seems the kurdish syrians are responsible. Not really a shock after the turks have been bombing the kurds from what i have been reading Well, that's what Erdogan has claimed, being such an honest guy and all. Regardless, I do worry what kind of stupid assed crap the proto-Sultan will attempt to pull now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Several dead being reported in Brussels today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Sounds like two large bombs at the check in desk and some shooting beforehand. Terrible but sadly unexpected news, I just hope there aren't too many casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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